Rafale Scam
Contents
PM Modi has renegotiated the Rafale deal to great advantage of Ambanis and even greater disadvantage to India. He is now buying far fewer planes at multifold cost without any technology transfer – just to enrich The Ambanis.
Can India Stop Rafale Scam?
Normally, we come to know about a scam long after it has happened. But thanks to our credit-seeking PM and his Media which glorifies his failures as achievements, we Indians are witnessing a scam in progress right now in front of our own eyes (if they’re open). Yes, we’re talking about Rafale Deal.
This scam not only involves our hard earned money but it also has serious implications for India’s security & morale of our Armed Forces. This also tells us for whom is the Hon’ble PM is actually working – For crores of Indians who voted for him, or for his cronies who fund his election campaigns.
We’ll have to understand the scam first. The Deal involves purchase of 36 Rafale fighter planes from France through Government to Government deal done by our Hon’ble PM.
History of the Rafale Deal
IAF (Indian Air Force) is in dire need of around 200 MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) since 2001. UPA approved the demand in 2007 and initiated the bidding. Many companies responded & finally Dassault won the bidding in 2012 to provide 126 Rafales at US$ 10.2 Billion, 18 jets to be provided ready-to-fly and rest 108 to be Made in India by HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) via technology transfer. 12 The deal also had other goodies, like Dassault was supposed to invest 50% revenue from this deal into India itself.3
| Detail | Original Deal | Modi’s Deal |
|---|---|---|
| Number of Planes | 126 | 36 |
| Total Contract Bn USD | 10.2 | 8.74 |
| Cost per plane Mn USD | 81 | 243 |
| Technology Transfer | Yes | No |
Dassault bid was the lower than the shortlisted Eurofighter and loaded with many benefits for India. Dassault was on the verge of bankruptcy and without this deal, France’s future as a defence supplier was in jeopardy. The deal Dassault offered after it’s unsuccessful attempts to export Rafales to Brazil & UAE, even made China nervous.4 They offered their best deal and India awarded them the contract, and followed up with negotiations to iron-out the details. The negotiations ended when PM Modi changed the entire deal (turned it on it’s head, actually, totally scrapping the Original Deal5) and announced purchase of 36 Ready-to-fly planes at almost 3-times the original cost from France.
Bye Bye Make in India. Bye Bye Technology Transfer. Bye Bye all the benefits to India, based on which Dassault won the bid in the first place.6
Look at the brazen loot of Money in above Table.
Partnership and technology transfer to HAL in original contract was with a strategic objective of developing indigenous capability in the long run. India can’t keep on purchasing super-costly aircrafts from other nations forever. Technology transfer and manufacturing of 108 jets in India by HAL was most important aspect of original deal, which PM Modi has done away with.
A PM who wants to make India a super power doesn’t do such scams and Insult India world over. The deal, as it stands today, is a full blown scam to loot India and benefits Mr Modi’s cronies.
What caused the change in deal?
So why did Hon’ble PM Modi spoil a sweet deal benefiting India (from a desperate company in serious need of business) into an outrageous losing proposition to empty India’s coffers to enrich France’s? What really happened?
Mukesh Ambani Happened. Anil Ambani Happened.
Within less than 2 weeks after Dassault bagged India’s 126 MMRCS deal, Mukesh Ambani became Dassault’s partner. 7 So did Anil Ambani, afterwards.8 Surprised? Now Dassault, which was ready to provide 126 Rafales at US$ 10.2 Billion, 18 ready to fly and 108 to be made in India by HAL allegedly asked additional money for weapons systems and technology transfer stretching the deal from 10.2 Billion to 14-18 Billion US$. Not only this, they reportedly refused to provide any guarantee for planes made by HAL. 9 In short, they broke every single clause, rider in the original contract. Although, we must point out that this was denied by Dassault at the time, who told PTI in Feb 2015 that they were still sticking to the original RFP price.10
There are numerous stories in the media about these escalated prices. The figures quoted by Defence Minister Parrikar are very strange. Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale’s bid for 126 fighters, stating: “When you talk of 126 (Rafale) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crores’ — Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.”11 Parrikar had escalated the deal from $10.2 Bn to $14 Bn (90,000 Cr Rs) without any apparent reason, when Dassault themselves had said they were sticking to the RFP price.
And, merely a month later, on May 31 2015, Parrikar was quoted as saying “the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military. The deal would have required around Rs 1.3 lakh crore over a period of 10-11 years, he added.”12
Very suspiciously, an already escalated figure of 90,000 crores ($14 Billion) for the deal merely a month ago had suddenly become $20 Billion now, almost a 50% increase in 50 days, for no rhyme or reason. Was the Modi government merely feeding these figures and lying to the media to justify its grounds for the renegotiation?
When Dassault entered the bid, it had no leverage and much to lose if it didn’t get the bid. Dassault was desperate, it’s reputation of being non-transparent in it’s business (rated worst – F Band by transparency international) wasn’t helping it much and Dassault’s CEO himself was mired in charges of financial irregularities.13 But Dassault-Ambani partnership changed everything. Now, Ambani – who controlled most of the politicians, thus controlled the government itself, was Dassault’s partner. So Dassault-Ambani started arm twisting Indian government to get the most out of the deal. Read about Ambani’s Gas Scams to know about his arm twisting prowess.14
Thankfully, it wasn’t that easy. At first whiff of corruption, the Defence Minister of UPA at the time, A K Antony – considered a rare honest politician in BJP-Con flock, stopped serious negotiations, delaying the deal. So Dassault-Ambani had to wait out 2 more years until Modi became PM.
Modi-Ambani unholy nexus is not a secret anymore. Modi shamelessly lends his face (PM’s credibility) to Ad campaigns of Ambani’s commercial products (Jio). So as soon as Modi had an opportunity, he ratified the deal that is most disadvantageous to India and Most profitable to Dassault-Ambani. What’s more, PM single-handedly took this decision, without even getting formal cabinet nod. Defence minister Parrikar himself wasn’t aware of the deal before 48 hours of the announcement. Crazy, eh?
It’s been said that Modi’s top guns Jaitley, Parrikar etc are not happy with Modi’s Deal. Subramanian Swamy of BJP has publicly spoken against and written a letter to PM Modi to stop this deal.15 He even threatened to file a PIL to stop the deal. A Rajya Sabha Seat has silenced him about his PIL to stop Rafale Scam. Of course, no one is talking about it, because most of Indian Media has been reduced to Modi’s cheerleaders. But for how long?
The scam is not in purchasing Rafale. The scam is at the outrageous price the jets are being purchased for and that too with terms which are totally unfair to India, trashing all the original objectives of the deal. India doesn’t need just jets. It needs cost-effective technology. If India had appointed our enemy Hafiz Saeed to negotiate a deal with Dassault-Ambani for us, even he might have come up with a better deal than Modi’s Deal!
Excuses being peddled
Of course, you’ll find whole teams of propagandists on Twitter, FaceBook, Quora, entire internet, in fact, feeding you false theories and rumours about how this is a golden deal for India, but fact remains, this is a Bull-Shit deal and a big scam to empty India’s coffers into Dassault-Ambani’s pockets. Just this week, Anil Ambani got the contract to manufacture spare-parts for yet to be made Rafales.8 There goes the offset into Ambani’s Pocket.
Bhakts argue that original deal of US$ 10.2 Bn had escalated to US$ 20 Bn or even more by the time Modi took charge and thus he scrapped the deal. A Lie. There are only 2 ways for cost escalation. 1: Inflation, which was agreed upon at 3.9% annual flat rate in the Original Deal. 2: Dassault breaches the contract. So how does US$ 81 Mn jet become US$ 243 Mn in a matter of 2-3 years with flat rate inflation index of 3.9%? How? By Magic? This is the scam, precisely. This article explains this Magic is Ambani. Immediately after Dassault won the tender, Ambani partnered with Dassault. There was no reason to scrap the original deal, except there was no profit for Ambani in the original deal. So Ambani-Dassault started playing dirty games until Modi came into the picture and scrapped the Original Deal and announced the Ambani Version. Additional minor customizations were added in the original deal so that the two deals can’t be compared straight away and to empower Modi’s dirty tricks department to fool people using these minor customizations as a reason for cost escalation from US$ 81 Mn to US$ 243 Mn per jet without tech transfer. This is why a white-paper on the Rafale Deal explaining the Original Deal, reasons for scrapping it and the New Deal in detail is required. The alleged scam in Bofors deal was just Rs 64 Crore, This is Rs 59000 Crore Deal. Think about it.
Bhakts argue that jets in Modi’s deal are upgraded (even tailor-made) for Indian terrain and the jets in the original deal were the basic model, so 3-fold cost escalation is justified. Firstly, these are NOT tailor-made planes for Indian terrain. Dassault was awarded the original deal because Rafales were best for Indian terrain. Secondly, the so-called upgrades cost no more than US$ 10 Mn per plane. Does this justify cost escalation from US$ 81 Mn to US$ 243 Mn? For example, per jet, Meteor Missile integration costs less than US$ 2 Mn (Missiles themselves are US$ 2.1 Mn per piece extra) per jet, Helmet Mounted Display System (HDMS) made by Elbit of Israel costs US$ 0.4 Mn. So We’re getting essentially the same so-called basic model with minor upgrades at 3 times the original cost. Open Loot. FYI, just in March 2015, Modi’s crony Adani partnered with Elbit of Israel.16 There’s something for everyone.
Bhakts argue that HAL, our own public sector company, has no efficiency/competence to make Rafales. Dassault wasn’t comfortable partnering with HAL. So? Is this deal for Dassault’s comfort? Dassault won the tender for providing 126 jets – 108 of them made in India via tech transfer with 50% offset at US$ 10.2 Bn. That was the deal, and that’s what India must demand (at the same cost, adjusted according to Inflation Index of 3.9% flat rate), OR impose a penalty on Dassault for breach of contract and wasting India’s time. Why would PM Modi deal with Dassault, if they back-tracked on the Original Deal? Too much trust in Ambanis? Anyways, the fact remains that HAL has made more planes that have flown, and won us wars than Ambani ever has. Do you never get sick of Bhakts who tirelessly defend scams of Ambani-Modi-Adani and pass it off as patriotism? Would you trust planes or spare-parts made by the Ambanis?
Bhakts argue that Modi made possible the 50% offset (reinvestment in India into companies which will make spares for Rafales. this part was in the original deal as well, but instead of just spares, 108 jets were to be made in India through technology transfer!), which will generate limitless jobs and business. Fact is, It has been India’s policy since 2005 that 30% offset will be part of every defence deal bigger than 300 crores. In this specific deal, the offset was already 50%. Modi hasn’t changed this 50% to 100% or even 51%. Period. Thank MMS if you must for the 50% offset clause. Modi has nothing to do with it. Modi is buying Rafales at 3 times the original cost (original 81 Mn US$ vs current 243 Mn US$ per plane). So even after 50% offset (read Ambani’s Profit), we’re getting the planes 1.5 times (50%) costlier. And the 50% offset is not pure discount. So even 50% offset clause has been offsetted against India.17 Further, won’t the offset generate 3 times more jobs and business if spares were to be made for 126 jets of original deal instead of just 36? Don’t do the Drugs, Bhakts. Do the Math.
Bhakts argue that in Modi’s deal, Dassault will ensure battle readiness of 25 (70% of 36) jets. But Dassault gave the same guarantee in the original deal too, for 13 (70% of 18) jets made by them. This is a standard guarantee Dassault offers to everyone, nothing special. More importantly, India was negotiating to get the same guarantee for 108 planes made by HAL in India as well. Modi scrapped the whole thing, and now we’re paying 3 times per plane (for whole lot of 36 planes) for battle-readiness of just 12 more planes? Really? Further, reliability has never been an issue with most non-Russian aircrafts, like Dassault’s own Mirage 2000. We have 51 of them since 1980. This was the reason IAF preferred more expensive Dassault & Eurofighter in its evaluation as compared to Sukhoi.
Bhakts would no-doubt talk about how we’re paying more because of eroding rupee. It’s bullshit of course. The deal is in US$ anyways, so exchange rate doesn’t matter at all. Their argument is ludicrous, however, as the deal is even bigger a scam when considered in INR. As per 2012 Deal, we were getting 126 jets (US$ 81 or Rs 445 Crore per plane) + tech transfer at 10.2 Bn US$, now we’re getting just 36 jets (US$ 243 or Rs 1617 Crore per plane) without tech transfer for 8.74 Bn US$. What we’re getting in Modi’s deal is not even 1/3rd (Considering the deal in US$) or 1/4th (Considering the deal in Rs) of the original deal.
Bhakts argue that 108 planes constructed in India by HAL would cost us more than Modi’s deal (per plane). This is absolute crap. The deal with Rafale was for 10.2 Bn US$ for 18 ready to fly Jets + technology transfer whereby Dassault will make 108 planes with HAL in India. That was the deal. Period. Modi’s dirty tricks department is in dire need of people with grey matter.
Bhakts argue that Modi has revised the original inflation index – 3.9% flat rate, to floating rate capped at 3.5%. You must be laughing already. At inflation index if 3.9% flat as per original deal, it would take 20+ full years until we pay double for the jets (even if compounded annually). We don’t want to pay double in 20 years, so we pay 3 times right now with floating inflation index capped at 3.5%? Who’s dumb? Modi? Bhakts? India? Don’t clap. Hit your head on nearest wall.
Bhakts argue that this deal should be compared with Egypt & Qatar’s Rafale Deals. Why? Why should we compare Modi’s deal with other countries’ recent deals, but not with Original Deal Rafale had with India back in 2012? This is like saying, see we can’t buy at lower price we had signed the deal 4 years back. We must buy at higher price someone else is buying now. Why indeed?
Bhakts will accuse you of depriving Army of Rafale jets. On the contrary opposition to this deal is to empower the Army and India by getting 18 Jets + Tech Transfer, manufacturing 108 Rafale fighters in India (Make In India) and other goodies as were present in Original Deal. We have to save our Tax money meant to be used for Army and Nation from going to Dassault-Ambani’s pockets.
Bhakts argue that if there’s really a Rafale scam, why hasn’t congress spoken about it? Will you believe Congress, if they speak about it? Dear Bhakts, facts are in front of your eyes. Use your brain. Modi is purchasing marginally better planes at 3 times the price, forgoing the technology transfer, to benefit Ambani Brothers who both are Dassault’s partners. Congress is in Ambani-Adani’s pockets too. That’s why you voted Modi, instead of congress, remember?1
Bhakts would challenge you that if there’s really a Rafale Scam, file a PIL. Really? Just curious, How many PILs did you or Modi file on any previous government’s scams? Zero. So the previous governments didn’t do any scam?
Bhakts would accuse you of not knowing the complexities of defence deals. If so, demand a white paper in national interest from PM on Dassault deal, including profiles of every entity involved in the deal. Surely, a white paper on the deal would clarify everything. It’s not too much to ask for, is it?
Bhakts argue that now Dassault is making tech transfer through JVs with Reliance. Really? Is India buying Rafales so that Reliance gets technology? Well the article says the same thing. This is a deal for Ambanis, Cronies. Not for India. Most ridiculous argument in defence of Dassault-Ambani.
Bhakts would accuse you of being anti-Modi. And indeed you are anti-Modi in this case, because Modi wants to empty India’s coffers into Ambani’s pockets, and you’re trying to stop him.
Of course, when Media itself is feeding lies to People of India with unnamed “source” based plants like this, you can’t really blame bhakts. Every benefit described in this plant is a lie. This article glorifies Rafale Scam as Modi’s achievement. Will you read DNA again? I won’t.
Addendum
As mentioned in the article itself, Modi propaganda machinery has been spreading lies to defend Rafale Scam. What’s funny, they’re just repeating the same lies that have already been busted. I’m committed to bust every single propaganda of Modi’s dirty tricks department on Rafale Deal. The more they lie, the better this article will be. You need not believe me. You have facts. You have brain. Use both.
This whole website is Anti Modi, i don’t know know whether congi or other opposition may have led this.
What’s the use of gun without a bullet, Aircraft without effecient weapon will be flying Duck, and 50% offset is no less to create an effecient ecosystem for aviation industry ( 59,000 X 0.5 = 29,500 crores will be invested in India by Dassault) and by inserting leg in Rafale deal will do good to pak and Anti Indian forces. Do all these scam screamers have solution if this deal is broken or single concrete evidence for their allegations. And is Modi govt. fool to make a blunder in such hyped deal, The price shall be compared with the recent deals of 24 with qatar and 24 with egypt, and then one will find that the deal is actually at a negotiated price.
The present govt. after running 2.5 years is transparent, and non corrupt.
We have our own intellectual to understand what’s right and wrong, the people have awaken now, they will not fall to any propoganda.
As pointed out by the author, the 50% offset is needlessly being projected as an achievement by Modi Propaganda, this has actually been the norm in all big defence contracts since 2008. The original deal also had the offset. Pls refer to a ISDA paper by S. Sunder on Implementation of Offset Policy if you are interested.
Saafbaat editors,
Are you working on behalf of china or pakistan, that you are trying to stalemate the Rafael delivery. Pls remember, if you don’t go to court with evidence in 3 months, we will charge you for anti national activities and consipiracy against India.
Rgds,
Short Answers:
1) NO.
2) Sure. So, asking for an investigation into this is a “conspiracy against India”? LOL.
Dear editor
Asking for investigation is not wrong but asking for investigation with the sole motive to scuttle the deal and hence jeopardize our defense preparedness is certainly anti national.
Actually, it was Mr Modi who scuttled the deal.
IAF needs 200 such medium range planes, was getting 126 + the capability to produce more ingenuously, now we will only get 36, at a vastly inflated price, and no transfer of technology. No word on any alternatives either.
very informative article.It may be d reason behind fuel hikes n 28% gst to generate awsome money.
he is working on the behalf of Congress party to make the public fool.
We published this article in October last year, a full year before Congress raised this issue.
50% offset is part of almost all defence deals, and it is since long. Losing TOT to HAL is a strategic loss.
“Own intellectuals” like “alternative facts”???
On what basis you are writing this comment. Ok lets take this website is biased I don’t get whats the basis of your argument no weapon.
I don’t know how much you know about technology transfer what all included in ToT.
Pls don’t comment when you don’t understand deal
The sheer ignorance and arrogance of the writer is mind boggling. STOP CHECKING THE NUMBERS YOU DUMBO. Do you even know the difference between two deals?
Those 126 rafale were the lowest/basic model/version of the rafale jet which would have been SH*T in India’s Himalayan region. Out of these, only 18 would have been directly purchased with 108 being constructed at HAL under technology transfer scheme.
Now, this is where it gets tricky – the estimate cost of building one rafale was WAY HIGHER than per rafale cost under this new deal. why don’t you show that number?
UPA government also did a blunder while calculation of cost. the UPA government had agreed with French officials to calculate the price on the fixed cost formula that allowed the company to include additional price of 3.9 per cent inflation indices from day one of the deal. Out of 126 Rafales, 18 were supposed to be manufactured in France and delivered in space of couple of months, and the remaining 108 would have been manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in India. So, had the India gone ahead with the UPA deal and the European Inflation Indices had fallen (as it indeed has), India would have ended up paying additional cost of inflation Indices (@3.9 per cent) which was already added at the initial negotiation itself. In short, India would have paid twice the price mentioned in the deal.
now coming to the current rafale deal. the 36 rafales that we are receiving are all especially designed for indian terrain u DUMBO. The base price of the aircraft is about €91 million or about Rs. 680 crore. the Rafale will be customized with Indian-specific advanced weapons package and sensor arrays that will give the country edge in colder regions of Himalayas and Leh. This customization has taken the cost to Rs.1600 crore per aircraft for the whole deal.
and whats more…out of these 36 rafales, india will not have to pay shit for maintenance of 27 rafales as 70% of 36 rafale will always be battle ready by dassault.
I know, u r not going to publish this comment. i ain’t modi bhakt, neither i am with bjp or congress…i m just a common man seeking real truth which dumb people like you twist it for traffics and gains
Despite your abusive language, we have published your comment.
1. Base model of the aircraft is the same as in the original deal. The IAF indeed chose this over other rivals in bidding, because it was considered most suitable for terrain IAF expects to operate on (esp in high altitudes, and desert conditions, where some american planes have struggled). Weaponry spec has some changes between the two deals, however these are insufficient to explain the escalation in cost.
2. Defence deals always have an inflation component. Paying a flat 3.9% inflation on price of 100 is not necessarily worse than we agreeing to pay double per unit, and negotiate floating inflation capped at 3.5% on price of 200.
3. The 70% always battle ready guarantee was also present for planes made by Dassault, please also note that this high reliability has never been an issue with most non Russian aircraft in the fleet anyways. Previous IAF aircraft from Dassault, the Mirage 2000, typically have 75% readiness rates. This was a reason IAF preferred more expensive Dassault & Eurofightter in its evaluation as compared to Sukhoi.
@saafbaat_editor
—> Weaponry spec has not some changes, but ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Also the model is not same as France’s or Egypt’s or Libya’s. Lets start with nuclear strike capability. Even the French don’t have the version of rafale that delivers nuclear payload. It’s first time designed for India. Now, coming to weapons package. The weapons package includes Meteor radar guided Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile considered the best in the class with range of over 150 km and Scalp long range air to ground cruise missiles with range of over 300 km. Its integration on the Rafale means IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and across the northern and eastern borders while staying within India’s territorial boundary! On the other, India’s arch-nemesis Pakistan has only a BVR with 80 km range! The India specific modifications also includes Israeli helmet mounted displays, ability to start at cold bases like Leh, better radar, better detection and survival features among others.
For other queries, following links will explain better –
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-all-you-need-to-know-about-rs-59000-crore-rafale-deal-india-and-france-signed-today-2257990
http://english.manoramaonline.com/news/just-in/rafale-deal-cabinet-approval-signing-india-defense-france.html
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/rafale-deal-17-months-later-from-e12-bn-to-7-8-bn-with-more-benefits-3043330/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/How-Narendra-Modi-reworked-Rafale-deal-and-why-its-a-winner/articleshow/46892688.cms
And I would especially like ALL OF YOU TO CHECK BELOW ARTICLE WRITTEN BY A VETERAN AIR FIGHTER WITH 39 YEARS of EXPERIENCE. There he explains why previous deal was scrapped –
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/574860/rafale-injects-renewed-vigour.html
Secondly, mr. writer/AAP politician…I would have believed you had u been a neutral party. But since u r AAP politician, I would rather trust an ex-fighter pilot than a politician
Please Please do post this comment
Thanks Mr Bhakt for exposing all Bhakts’ intellect and Modi’s DUMB propaganda. I would cherish ripping your misinformation propaganda apart.
Your first comment and all your gung-ho is based on a DNA article (Owned by Zee) which doesn’t even disclose name of the author. Of course, like everything Zee, this is all praises for Modi, without telling us why the hell did he cancel the sweet deal. Is that your proof that there’s no scam or that Modi is great? What does it prove exactly, except it’s plant to defend Rafale Scam?
Meteor BVR you’re so excited about costs US$ 3 Mn per plane, all inclusive. Helmet mounted Displays cost US$ 0.4 Mn. Add it to original deal cost per plane, US$ 81 Mn. What do we get? US$ 243 Mn? How much cut did you get Mr Bhakt?
https://warisboring.com/the-best-air-to-air-missile-in-the-world-is-in-sweden-339b2cb6afa8#.jfn2u446o
No one denies that the planes we’re getting are not the same, but upgradations are minor with respect to cost. Total opacity about this, except the quoted cost of 1700 Mn Euros for upgradations is enough to demand a white paper.
Since you claim the Rafales Mr Modi is getting are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the original deal, Please prove your claim with each change and cost escalation per change which can be corroborated from multiple sources. Since core of your argument is that we’re paying more because these are far superior jets, you must give list of changes and respective cost escalations before your argument is even considered. I’ve proved your argument is total BS. Your turn to prove otherwise. You can’t. Your DNA plant doesn’t contain that Info.
And then comes Manorama article, also without author. Another plant. Staff-written article, eh?
The Indian Express article compares Modi’s own first deal (Which would have been an even bigger scam) with his second attempt, while the scam is scrapping the original deal and turning it upside-down as Modi did. Height of stupidity. I’m getting a soap for 10 rupees. I scrap that deal and announce another deal for getting that soap with perfume at 50 Rupees. Then I negotiate and purchase this soap at 35 Rupees. My bhakts get multiple-orgasms!
But wait, there’s times group article too. Arnab works for them, no? FYI, even that article doesn’t give any comparison. The better deal it talks about is his own 50 Rupees soap versus his new 35 Rupees soap. And of course, the article is all praises for Modi for purchasing 10 Rupee soap at Rs 35. The neighbour got the same soap at 50 Rs.
Funny you quote an Army Veteran who is totally neutral, even critical of Modi’s deal. No one is saying 36 Rafales won’t help Army. The issue is COST. COST is the SCAM.
And that’s precisely the issue Bhakts and Media ignore. Why are you beating around the bush? Just bring out a white-paper on the deal. Such opacity on such a high profile deal!
And we’ve forgotten completely about Ambanis.
Why are you guys letting this bhakt comment here, when he’s not able to falsify a single claim made in the article? Perhaps to expose DUMB bhakts and their arguments, eh? : )
Thanks once again for exposing Bhakts, Modi and Media.
We publish all comments, (bhakts or non bhakts alike! 😉 ), even those critical of our articles, as long as they aren’t abusive.
(a very large number of purely abusive comments have been blocked)
Interesting comments but the articles fails to provide the proof that the additional arms cost less than projected. They are just quoting some values. But the source is unknown. Looks like a Jumla.
The values are quoted with references. That’s the proof. And you have all the liberty to bring your own proof and counter the article. Even after having proof, if you call it Jumla, I don’t know what will convince you about Modi’s scam.
It’s specifically mentioned that the additional costs are not more than US$ 5-10 Mn for a jet that costs US$ 81 Mn. With references. If you want to believe that 81 Mn US$ jet megically becomes 243 Mn US$ with so called upgradations, your choice.
you add my age and live longer
In earlier deal only 18 planes will be delivered & rest 108 planes will be manufactured in HAF, so the cost of manufacturing those will be over and above the agreed price previously.
Pls correct me if I am wrong.
Not really, the deal was for 126 aircraft. 18 in fly away condition, 108 were to be “assembled” at HAL.
Also note that the 50% offset clause would have forced Dassault to re-invest back in India, just as now.
Modibhakt or Not, you Mr are one of a kind.
Everything you wrote is baseless.
Stupidity of unparalleled level.
Prove every single claim you made, so that I can rip them apart.
You’re funny though. You’re defending a scam and abusing Indians, and you think that makes you what? Sane? Bizzare!
Great research and detailed queries..let anyone answer the issues raised and not get into idiotic name calling and maybe they will be taken seriously.
Exactly, let us have a civilized discussion without any name calling and abuses.
I don’t do bhakti of any party, just care about the country.
Some of these comments on this article are very detailed & informative. Frankly, I don’t trust the “cheerleader” mainstream media too much any more.
You are neither a BJP-ian nor a Congress-ian, there are too many questions that need answers. Why Mr.Modi is very much particular about the Rafale, the company which soon would be out of world-map of heavy armaments ? Why the heavy-Armour quite inconclusively not conducive to be in the Indian armoury
for combat ? F-16s are most crucial in a war weaponry like Israel which possesses the largest number after the US. And hence, why not F-16 ? Israel had the answer which the Askanazi Jews never ever revealed to Mr.Modi on his recent visit. And indeed what you, the gentleman has inked with the quilt is completely an abracadabra, to defend …..?
Colder regions of Himalayas? This is nuts. Aeroplanes fly at different altitude. The higher you the colder it gets. Your entire rejoinder is silly and infantile. You refute nothing. It’s just gobbledygook
I believe IAF had some 600 odd parameters against which these competing aircraft were evaluated. (These may have included some about desert conditions, or our typical operational scenarios, e.g. low altitude flying over himalayan terrain, maybe?)
BUT, We are still buying the SAME aircraft model, so this argument that we are paying more because of some XYZ change in the airframe is silly.
Question is, Do the weaponry and avionics upgrades, justify the inflated cost? I think some other comments explain this very well, and the answer looks like a NO.
Do you know which one is better Su30 MKI or Rafael? Do you know what is the cost of one indigenous Built Su30? If you can give the correct answer then everything will be crystal clear
Sukhoi’s are cheaper (~$50 million per Unit), and have some pros and cons as compared to Rafale.
However, they were not shortlisted by the IAF on the 640 technical parameters for the MMRCA.
Finally, any suspicious escalation in the costs should be probed, and problems addressed. It shouldn’t become a justification for “whataboutery” for subsequent cost increases.
So why don’t you guys file a PIL.why you are dependent on some swami to come for rescue?
Do you think Congress n Opposition would be sitting quiet if they even whiff a scam n that too of such magnitude, if we have to believe you. This is just gossip mongering and loaded with political vested interest. You people have nothing to write about other than bash Modiji, who is trying to set things right for India. You people are talking out of guilt conscience because you slept n took shit for 50 years of MIS governance. Now you feel like being slapped out of your slumber n trying to confuse people by quoting numbers. If UPA had got the best deal then, when they were in power, why did they not conclude the deal or fast tracked the deal. Also our check systems are so strong that no one even a PM cannot close a deal without following the protocol. You yourself have made a statement that parrikar, jaitley n senior leaders are not happy with the deal. Come on talk sense n doling out crap. You as a citizen have every right to file a PIL if you feel it’s a crap deal. Why don’t you do so without wasting time………are you guys for real…..
Do you think if congress was corrupt, Modi would spare them? Wouldn’t all corrupt congressies be behind the bar by now?
Mr you’re presented with proofs of an ongoing rafale scam. Will you use your own brain or congress’s?
It’s your choice if you want to believe congress is not-corrupt. Proof that rafale planes are being purchased at 3-4 times the actual prices is a SCAM. Your choice to ignore it.
This authou has been paid by Lockheed or Boeing to stop the deal period.
Author has exposed an ongoing scam with proofs.
You should provide proof of your claim.
If your claim is valid, I accuse you of being Modi’s son without marriage. My claim is valid too.
And if Lockheed or Boing have paid to expose this scam, I’m thankful to them.
reading this comment made my day…. alas bhaktas are soulless brainless creatures… in their dumb founded beliefs feku cannot do anything wrong
India will suffer till the time u idiots are their on our soil. if someone is doing good to build a strong nation, you fools are always crying. India has a history of failure since independence in congress governance. that never bothered you. you people are crying of scams. this requirement was needed in 2001, but took a decade to decide. now if someone is doing on a fast track, you fools are blaming.
India is already suffering you.
Modi is looting India, The proof is in front of your eyes, and instead of giving any real rebuttal, all you do is abuse. Exactly like Feku.
Rafale Scam is a reality. Proofs are in front of your eyes.
Keep lying and fooling nation for Modi.
2019 is nearing, and India will respond to your lies.
Can modi bhakt will justify why Ambani are involved if you dont rely Hal how can you rely ambanis.are you blind you can not see why petrol and diesel are kept out of Gst.. No doubt Modi dont have son or daughter. But he has stronge will to remain in chair by hook or crook. I am not any political person nor hindu or muslim .i am purely an indian and believe in Humanity only. person working day and night giving 30% income tax 5to 28% gst more than 50% taxes on ptrole& diesel. Just for nothing govt money is sifoned to ambani and adani. Only to remain in chair of pm.
In 2001, NDA Govt was in power, headed by AB Vajpayee. UPA came to power in 2004. The proposal was passed and bidding was initiated in 2007 and awarded in 2012. Although this might be late by corporate and business standards and people can debate on that, my point is that during 3-4 years after demands were placed by the IAF, the NDA Govt. did not do anything (or preparation were being done for the proposal to be passed) too. The article also smells foul about the various developments and demands of white paper seems just as no corruption is being claimed. Why a company which won the bid broke every possible clause after winning? Does it have anything to do with Ambani brothers partnering with to delay and wait for their “wazeer”? Why India (PM) did not sue or penalize the company that broke contract clause after winning the deal. The brazen behavior of breaking contract’s terms and conditions with impunity by the company after Ambani brothers’ partnerships indicate towards the resultant unpunished scrapping of the deal and renegotiations by the Indian Govt. Is PM answerable… at least in the form of white paper? That is what is being asked in this article as I understand.
V.Good Article
Though links look like biased towards “Anti Modi” and I refrain from posting on such links.
But the way, article is referenced and indexed, seems explicit and apparently transparent.
This may be Second Live Scam to the Independent India after Vyapam.
If u are so much interested in helping india pls put some lights on UPA SCAMS as well, i think in 60 years of rule there are definatley more scams then Raffale which would have involved largers sums of money that u just showed in this stupid article, pls put a PIL for those as well, i think people would like to know the case in details as the one u descried above, and pla dont fudge numbers to make it smaller like u did here to make it big,. Give excat details so peopel dont have to give correct figures in your comments part.
Do you have no shame, Sir?
If you’re asking me to expose congress’s 60 years of scams, what is Modi supposed to do? Fill Ambani’s coffers by looting India? Change suits and HRD ministers?
Why the heck Indians can’t focus upon the present? These same people will ask someone to probe Modi’s scams after 60 years, but won’t STOP RAFALE SCAM!
And this dumbo, like all bhakts, claims numbers have been fudged here. Abe proof Modi dega tere claim ka?
Mitesh Patel, why were you quiet during Cong scams ? There were scams after scams coming out one after another during Cong rule. Amount running in crores of crores rupees, why you did not bother than?
Nope.
I am the one who defeated Congress, with others like me.
But Modi is protecting Scamster Congis.
2.5 years gone, not a single scamster behind the bars.
Your choice to defend Modi’s scam.
Facts are in front of your eyes.
I’m from Gujarat. I know. Modi is more corrupt than entire congress put together.
If you’re up for it, you can come to Gujarat and we’ll shoot video of Modi’s development.
It is very enthusiastic and motivated article ,coming to the big no at technology transfer u might like to read this article-https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.financialexpress.com/india-news/rafael-fighter-jet-deal-to-create-thousands-of-jobs-india-inc-to-get-3-bn-euros-worth-biz/412366/lite/
The offset clause will also benefit other companies mentioned in article not of ambani and Mukesh has nothing to do with it
Did you even read the article?
THE OFFSET CLAUSE WAS PRESENT IN ORIGINAL DEAL AS WELL.
Question is, why the hell did Modi scrap original deal of 126 jets + technology transfer (US$ 10.2 Bn) and made it 36 jets (US$ 8.74 Bn) ?
FYI, The original deal was slightly bigger, so 50% offset would be even more beneficial to India’s economy according to Original Deal.
And this is proved beyond doubt that everything in this Rafale deal is for Ambanis. Mukesh is dassault’s partner who will eat the main profit, Anil is Dassault’s partner who will eat 50% offset. Of course, there will be small crumbs for others too.
Modi’s best weapon against India is copy-paste ninjas such as above who don’t even read the article to see that their lies have been busted even before their lies are posted here.
No doubt, production of these spare parts for the 36 Rafale jets in India will create jobs, and bring benefits.
Imagine, how much more benefit the production of 108 would have brought.
Offset clause had been a part of the original deal too.
Just tell me what is the percentage or Kejriwal’s 526 cr Abuse Accuse n Propaganda budget has been donated to the writer and the website? Or u guys attended Rahul’s Khaat Sabha n got 02 Khaats each?
Sad to see such low level of paid journalism – Just pathetic to see how Hate Modi campaign has driven to manufacture venomous lies and post on website. The biggest LOW of this article is that the writer already knew that he is writing some crap and he tried to create a defence for him referring the people questioning the sanctity of the pool of lies as “bhakts”. How low life you can get?
No counter argument to your rubbish claims. One one thing – Get well soon – from Hate attack …
You’re proving author’s point.
There’s no way to defend Modi’s scam, so you discredit Author without countering the facts.
Dumb actually.
This technique of discrediting author instead of facts doesn’t work anymore, Bhakt.
Counter the facts or keep crying while people expose Feku.
And Hate?
Author is mocking Stupidity of Modi and his Bhakts, He’s Laughing at you, not hating anyone.
Not interested in Stopping Rafale Deal?
STFU please.
Mitesh Patel you were suppose to get kickbacks in 126 Rafale deal which got scrapped, were you in hibernation when Cong was doing scams after scams. You seem to be so desperate, Cong and its supporters know it’s there last chance to get in power or else it will be a long wait. It takes time to uproot an old tree, Modiji will take time but justice will prevail.
Prove your claim dear Bhakt.
I am the one who defeated congress.
And Modi is protecting the congress now.
Not a single conviction on the scams of congress you’re talking about.
That’s why I’ll defeat Congi stooge Modi too.
The article proves that Feku is corrupt to the core.
You can’t prove him innocent by saying that I was getting the kickbacks from original deal.
That’s as dumb as a bhakt can be.
Fact remains, Feku is Corrupt.
You defend a black and white scam.
Jets worth 81 Mn USD are raised to 243 Mn USD for Ambani, Adani’s profit, and you defend this scam.
You are corrupt too.
Dear author If you have the transcript of the original and new deal please share. Without access to them you are believing here say. And I don’t want to create a jumla like you.
I’ve also searched about the details of original deal.
It’s not hearsay, though. Old and new costs of the jets are not secret. he references of the Old deal are of the time when Modi wasn’t even PM Candidate and references of the new deal are current reports by Media.
I think If not the author, someone from 126 Crore Indians should get this details through RTI.
Especially those, who are writing paragraphs over paragraphs defending this deal based on stories made-up in their mind should get details and prove the article wrong.
There are enough references, and google search provides many more, including references in non-indian defence journals that suggest the calculations in the article are correct.
When the RFP was floated initially, the vendor (Dassault) had the liberty to chose an Indian partner of its choice based on the prospective partner’s capability in terms of investments. After careful consideration, Dassault chose Reliance. There are some 16 to 23 (not sure about the exact number) suppliers for Rafale like Eaton, Safron, Thales etc., who in turn have been linked to Indian companies like L&T, TATA group, Godrej Group, Mahindra Group, Dynamatic Technologies Ltd. etc., who have made significant contribution to aerospace industry & make in India and over the decades have invested huge amounts of money to put Indian aerospace on the global map. I wouldn’t say this is a similar example, but would like to mention about the Toyota-Kirloskar partnership where in Toyota’s suppliers and subsidiaries partnered with Kirloskar’s suppliers and subsidiaries.
HAL was adamant that everything has to happen through them, but given their not so good track record, Dassault was skeptical in partnering with an organization controlled by the customer (IAF/GOI) and deliver the promised number of aircrafts within the stipulated time. Dassault wanted a stable investor minus the bureaucratic hurdles and Reliance emerged as their choice. It is not that all the 30K offset clause is being consumed by Reliance, there are reputed companies which I have mentioned in previous paragraph.
Meticulous identification, scrutiny and subsequent finalization of all the Indian partners happened during the UPA regime, NDA/BJP was nowhere on the radar and even chances of NDA coming to power was also a big question mark. It is ridiculous and lack of maturity of the author to say “A K Antony – considered a rare honest politician in BJPCon flock (then Defence Minister of UPA) stopped serious negotiations, delaying the deal.”
My question is why would an honest defense minister worth his salt will delay the deal of procuring fighter planes which is of paramount importance for the security of the sovereign Nation?
secondly, even if he believed in delaying the matter for 2 years and UPA 3 came to power, what did he achieve in delaying? on the other hand, if NDA/BJP came to power, don’t you think he had the basic common sense that the deal would go straight to the hands of the opposition? you mean to say BJP influenced Dassault to partner with Reliance during UPA 1 & UPA 2? even if they had attempted, do you think Dassault or any company for that matter will listen to BJP when the decision maker is Congress/UPA? don’t you think it is bit of comedy?
Personally, I am not a great fan of Reliance, but I have seen how they enter into a new field and succeed with zeal, enthusiasm, focus, determination and team work which is lacking to a great extent in our PSUs including HAL. Moreover, we are not talking about only Reliance here. Dassault has also identified companies like L&T, TATA, Godrej too. I am happy that these companies will take giant steps ahead in the aerospace world creating infrastructure at par with leading nations and create lot of jobs to talented and deserving Indians and also attract aerospace customers from all over the world.
Under UPA or under NDA, Dassault has promptly stayed away from not so capable HAL and insisted on the liberty to chose its partners to avoid delays. It’s their choice under the RFP terms and conditions and they are utilizing it and didn’t succumb to the lobby of HAL through UPA & NDA. That’s it.
I don’t see where do you prove there’s no scam?
Ambani is as honest as Dassault? OK.
A K Antony is not honest? OK.
Many companies will eat the cake? OK.
But where do you prove that buying jets worth 81 Mn USD at 243 Mn USD is not a scam?
As the article says, Modi’s dirty tricks department needs people with grey matter.
Cost of Rafale deal had ballooned to 28-30 Billion Euros in Jan-2014. Works out to about 234.3 million Euros overall per aircraft
( http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dna-exclusive-100-price-escalation-on-rafale-fighter-aircraft-to-rs-175-lakh-crore-likely-to-dent-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107 )
Current deal of Euro 7.87-billion for 36 Rafales comes to 218.6 million Euros per Aircraft!
Where’s the scam?
Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale’s bid for 126 fighters, stating: ‘When you talk of 126 (Rafale) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore’ — Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.
So, looks like DNA’s “exclusive” report was so exclusive that even our Defence Minister was not aware of it!
Hahaha Bhakts will disown Manohar Parrikar .
It does not seem anything true . Just trying to defame the govt . If true file pil and go to court with evidence and give to pappu as well atleast he will get something to speak in public and media. In social media putting these type is the way of defaming anyone.
Re: “In social media putting these type is the way of defaming anyone.”.
Partly agree, Not only in Social media, but also on mainstream media, we have lot of speculative paid propaganda stories these days, that often just quote “unnamed sources” and make big claims.
All our articles provide references to each of the claims being made.
If you think any of the claim is false, please raise it, and let others comment on it.
Before i reply to this post , this is my source of information . http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/MMRCA-deal-India-to-scrap-20-billion-mega-project-for-126-Rafale-fighter-jets/articleshow/46910444.cms
Now let me first tell this saafbaat team that Original MMRCA deal was scrapped in 2015 . As cost was reached at around 20bn $. I am not sure either you guys deliberately not mentioned it or it was the honest mistake .
Secondly you mentioned that there is no Technology transfer . Than question arise if there is no Tech transfer than why should they form JV with Reliance . Reliance will manufacture parts for these fighter planes at there Nagpur facility which will be used in future by govt as spare part supplier . So your claim that no technology transfer is taking place is found baseless.
Now your major issue is Reliance entering JV with Dassault .Dassault was reluctant to enter in JV with HAL as that might delay the project as HAL govt run entity so things not move fast with govt organisation than with private players. You also forget that govt also precuring other defense equipment from another private players like trucks from TATAs and Ashok Leylands. Even L&T played important part in manufacturing Indias first Nuclear power submarine . All these above mentioned private companies have JV with other countries .
Your article rotates around Reliance entering JV with Dassault because of Modi Haters pre assumption that reliance being closer to BJP .
1. The article already mentions that the original deal was scrapped. The article compares the original deal with the final one for costs. Defence minister Parrikar’s own statement in Apr 2015 suggests the cost had only escalated to Rs 715 Cr per plane including everything.
2. Also, Tech Transfer to Reliance isn’t same as Tech Transfer to India. Is Indian taxpayer paying so that Reliance gets technology?
3. Yes, there are private sector companies of India already supplying to Indian Army or Air force. Just as the public sector Bharat Dynamics Limited is still a partner with the Thales group to supply components in the current deal. The main issue is how the original deal, giving us full technology transfer to enable publicly owned HAL, (which has been in the business since 1940), was subverted to the benefit of the Reliance group, whose have already held the nation to ransom with their behaviour on Gas Pricing on KG basin. Now we’re purchasing jets worth USD 81 Mn (or customised jets worth USD 104 Mn as per Parrikar) at USD 243 Mn with partial tech-transfer to cronies. Which is the scam, precisely.
From a day Deal was announced ( Not signed ) Dassault was not happy with facilities of HAL . HAL being Govt organisation it is vert difficult for them to as fast pace as private players (Plus red tapism and beurocracy) . And going with you calculation of deal amount let me tell you that deal was not signed in 2012 it was just announced . Rupee depreciated almost 25% from Jan 2012 till May 2014 . The time Modi became PM cost of Deal was increased from 10.8bn $ to more than 20bn $ . Here is the link and this link is from secular News group which bhakts called as anti national (NDTV )
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-force-chief-says-22-billion-french-fighter-rafale-jet-deal-almost-done-658485
In this report ACM said deal is now of 22bn$ . Being ACM he definately know more than all the media channels including you and me . So i consider your calculation is totally false or biased or might your research is not upto the mark .
You also forgot to mention that last deal was about manufacturing 108 planes in India with Tech transfer but current deal is about setting up Manufacturing unit in India form which Dassault will export rafalles to other countries plus manufacturing of their other advance planes in India . I dont understand how can you guys not mentioned this . This might be again deliberate attempt or honest mistake . Regarding KG basin they are already fined by BJP not congress . If you are talking about these Industrial groups everybody is involved in some thing or another . Even TATA was involved in 2G scam . Dassault had a choice and they formed venture with Reliance . Like other Arm suppliers formed JVs with other Indian MNCs .
1. Re: Cost escalation, many estimates of escalated costs are floating on the internet. These vary anywhere between 12-28 Bn. However, Defence minister Parrikar’s statement to Doordarshan in Apr 2015 suggests the cost had only escalated to 90,000 Cr Rs. (~13.2 Bn Eur as per the exchange rates back then).
Yes, Rupee depreciated, and that makes the deal look even WORSE in Rupee terms, but as the article mentions, that is why we have compared in Dollars.
2. Air Chief Marshal had spoken to HT, and was actually asking for proceeding with the old deal, as IAF cannot afford any more delays. Various headlines ranging from 22Bn to 25Bn were added to this by agencies, and repeated by many media houses without any due diligence (Rare these days!) although I could not find ACM himself talking about the cost. In his interview to HT, Raha had said, “It will not be appropriate to make any changes in the process.” We urge you to find and confirm this for yourself. Headlines in media sometimes are deliberately made sensational, and have no justification from the content.
3. Err.. Dassault setting up a unit in India? To manufacture full planes? Although we do not see how this is any better for us than ToT to HAL, do tell us more.
4. KG Basin dispute arbitration has been going on for some time now. Irrespective of which regime started process, and under which regime the final judgement came out, the crucial point I was trying to make earlier was, Reliance group, as a company, has a suspicious past.
Well i did’nt find any link of Parrikar saying this , but all in all you have to accept your per unit calculation is wrong .
Now we don’t know the inside story how they Dassault decided on Reliance over other Players .
Regarding their JV with Relaince you can read about it in this article which says that this facility might be use to fulfill global demands plus having one company with exposure to defense field will be good advantage for India .
In order to grow as weapon manufacturer country India need private companies to take part in this where govt can have full control over the Company dealings as all defense manufacturers need to take permission from their respective govts about new contracts .
Do you have any other company in mind which might have fulfilled the requirement but not have suspicious past , do inform me i will love to circulate the article if you find any ( Even facebook , microsoft ,google , apple have suspicious past ).
You might not like Modi or his supporters (Bhakts) but writing this article with deliberate wrong information (proved ) you are not any good for future . Modi will do mistake may be tomorrow or next year till than you guys need wait and dont loose your credibility .
1. re: Parrikar remark Check here.
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/four-reasons-why-rafale-could-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm
2. “Regarding their JV with Relaince you can read about it in this article which says that this facility might be use to fulfill global demands plus having one company with exposure to defense field will be good advantage for India .”
Err.. Obviously, they will say its good for India. Get the media owned by them (was 60% of major Indian media houses earlier, not sure how much now) to repeat the same.
They wouldn’t say “We are cronies of Modi, we will just bankroll his next election campaign, and get the media we own to sing praises, destroy his opposition, as long as he gives us a free hand in defence deals?”
3. The central point is not about preventing private sector from doing anything.
In this case, the original deal was cheaper per unit, gave us Transfer of Technology (ToT) to HAL. ToT was one of the most important consideration when choosing Dassault over its rivals in the first place! The manner in which it has been shelved, to give contracts to Ambani, whereas we end up paying more per plane, is THE issue. HAL is not perfect. But, whatever the excuses being given for sidelining HAL might be, it has been in business since 1940, and built more planes than any Ambani owned company has. (p.s. even Adani has a curious JV done recently with the Israeli firm selling the HMDS at a very inflated price!).
If we start supporting this crony capitalism under any pretext, we would end up being an oligarchy like Russia.
Also, there is no clarity over how the government intends to fulfil the IAF need of 120-200 MMRCA planes? Original deal had the solution, with this deal, we are picking up a quarter of our needs at a much higher per unit price! We don’t know yet how much the full expense for the 120 planes is going to be.
If you say that Media is owned by ambanis than it is pretty sure that remaining ones are owned by Reliance rivals and most of other manufacturers are jealous of not winning that deal . They will make sure that deal is not that smooth. I already proved that your calculations are wrong. You should congress why deal was delayed for so Long which resulted in price rise and why govt manufacturing are not efficient . Why Govt buying trucks and other defense from private players but not manufacturing them . Why tejas required 30 yrs to induct in India army .
Do you think French will work in Indian manufacturing units ? How come this is not Tech transfer . We are still importing spate parts from Russia which result in long wait repair wait for mig .
1. Sure, we just need to find any rival who has no fear of ED hounding him, or govt cutting him off, perhaps has given up on pursuit of material wealth and increasing his shareholder’s wealth suddenly. 🙂
The last time a few businessmen in India took a principled stand against Mr Modi was in 2002, and they were Mr Bajaj and Mr Godrej. Read Vinod Jose’s detailed article on Mr Modi to find out what happened to them.
2. I don’t see how you have proven anything, Even going by Parrikar’s version of increased costs, the per unit cost is not significantly different from what our author has used, based on the original deal, as the author has clearly said. The per unit cost of the revised deal will still be more than 2x. We still get only 36 out of the required 126-200, and we still do not get any ToT or indigenous capability.
You have started shooting into many directions, none of which are of much relevance to the deal. LCA delays have got nothing to do with this deal. btw, it took nearly 20 years for Rafale to be inducted into the French Air force too, from the time it was first envisaged, although the French had far more experience in developing fighter jets. Dassault could have partnered with HAL as they do for Mirage 2000, or with Bharat Dynamics Ltd, or they would with these Ambani companies.
You are sticking to point that media is sold out but want us to believe you that you are among the honest . Why media houses should not be scrutinized? You are sticking to your calculations u am sticking to it that I proved you wrong . Not few business man but whole nation stood against Bjp after 2002 and voted them out . Supreme court cleared modi of all charges that too in congress regime ? Name any party i will give you details of their communal past . India chooses best among worst as PM this time . If Dassault is not happy with HAL facilities than govt can’t do anything . They signed the deal under Make in India campaign. U never answered any questions but trying to dodge them with your anger against Ambanis but still quite against other companies involved in scams ( I don’t understand why ) MMRCA scrapped so do compulsion to enter in JV with HAL . That was also one reason for delay.
“Supreme court cleared modi of all charges that too in congress regime ?”
There has been no case against Modi in SC yet, to the question of SC clearing Modi of all charges does not arise.
Congress could not do much, as Modi exploited the provisions of the commissions of inquiry act, by modifying the terms of reference of the Nanavati commission soon after UPA win, and ensuring Nanavati commission submitted its final report only after UPA was out of power.
I don’t know how many tine I have to prove you wrong .
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/12/26/court-clears-narendra-modi-in-riots-case/
I said before don’t loose your credibility
LoL.. yes, I am aware of the twisted headlines, but what’s the actual story? (I couldn’t access the WSJ blog article, behind paywall)
Was there an actual case against Mr Modi in the SC? Go find more. You will see how propaganda works – “SC gives clean chit to Modi” is a factually incorrect statement, but repeat a lie 1000 times… and you know what happens.
I would recommend our own article https://www.saafbaat.com/wp/gujarat-genocide/sit which explains it very well, and also gives you good references to look at.
In it, you will also find the only direct observations that SC made in any judgement about Modi’s Gujarat Govt with respect to 2002 killings – in Bilkis Bano and Best Bakery cases.
Well i dont see any reason of believing you because i proved you wrong in my each and every comment . Here again i am providing a link which will prove you wrong and this link is from so called secular (Lordship of all anti bhakts news viewers) NDTV .
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/no-evidence-against-narendra-modi-says-supreme-court-appointed-team-10-facts-475972
My friend u are sharing news reports from rediff mail but you forgot that rediff mail is owned by person(Ajit Balakrishnan) who was appointed at various important positions by congress regime . Sorry guys but your research might influence those guys who never verify facts before sharing but not somebody who cross check info available or presented .
Don’t believe me, try to find yourself, look for the SC judgement ordering Gujarat Govt to setup an SIT for Zakia Jafri petition, look for the reports on submission of the SIT closure report to the metropolitan court, etc. You will eventually understand the point. 😉
In 2013, a panel appointed by the Supreme Court said there was insufficient evidence to prosecute him in Gulberg Society case
It was the third investigation to come to the same conclusion.
This is the SC order asking Gujarat Govt to setup the SIT. A majority of SIT members were nominated by Gujarat Govt, and were the officers of the accused organisation (Gujarat Police) itself.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/notify-sit-in-ten-days-court/article1227563.ece
I don’t see you proving anyone wrong, except you’re babbling irrelevant things.
Why don’t you just show us how US$ 81 Mn Jet becomes worth US$ 243 Mn? What’s the Magic? Is it Inflation? Is it upgradation? Author gave his references, you give yours and show us US$ 81 Mn + X + Y + Z + … = US$ 243 Mn.
Do this or you’ll be exposed. FYI, you’re yet to prove a single claim of the author wrong. Not one.
If you read my comments I proved author wrong again and again with verified sources other than author sources and calculations .
I read all your comments.
You didn’t prove the article or author wrong.
Author’s references and calculations have not been rebutted.
You just go on singing the cost of Rafale Jets had escalated and there are upgradations, which is what the article says.
The article says this is a scam because there’s not way upgradations and inflation escalate the prices 3 times. THAT IS THE SCAM.
You haven’t justified the escalated prices by providing the detailed break-up of the upgradation costs.
Just quoting inflated prices after Ambani partnered with Dassault proves Author’s point, not your.
Just provide detailed break-up and prove your case. It’s that simple.
Don’t beat around the bush.
Only reason author crying scam because Dassault and reliance enters in JV . But he never justified other private companies entering in defense sector . Yes price escalated but not three times . I pointed out articles which says that deals was actually for 22 bn $( I m quoting Navy chief here )Read some comments of author there he said that actual price of deal is unknown . U guys are in mis conception that deal was signed in 2012 but it was not . It was announced but never signed by previous govt . Now its better you guys clear your mind and start searching . I just searched the net and found relevant articles from 2012 to 2016 . If you guys wants to be like person who believe every thing on net without research than good luck for your future.
As already pointed out to you several times, The article compared the original deal terms with the revised ones. EVEN going by the price per unit conceded by Defence minister himself in Apr 2015, the per unit price has gone up > 2x times.
JV with Ambani (and also do not forget the Adani JV with the Israeli company providing the HMDS at a very inflated cost!) is indeed suspicious.
Nope.
The author is “CORRECTLY” terming the Rafale Deal as scam as without no apparent reason the cost of Rafale Jets ballooned from US$ 81 Mn to US$ 243 Mn. US$ 81 Mn is the price quoted by Dassault itself, so quote from anyone else is irrelevant, except if you claim the Navy Chief was working for Dassault.
Dude, you’re just making up stories.
File an RTI.
Get details of both the deals.
Prove your point.
Don’t malign AUTHOR to defend SCAMSTER FEKU.
Feku sold land at 1 Re / Square Meter to Adani. You don’t get 1 Square Meter cloth at that price.
Is it so hard to do? To get REAL DATA to prove your Point?
Old deal data is Legit, because FEKU wasn’t even in Picture then.
You can’t cry this is all a conspiracy to malign Ambani-Adani Stooge Feku.
Don’t keep defending FEKU’s SCAM.
Editor, Great job with this article.? To be honest UPA or NDA does not matter. Wherever Reliance lays hands there will be loss to India, this is just going to be another KG Basin where govt will give license to Reliance to loot India left right and center. Once they entered the deal it is a hiest 🙂
Agree with you, for a huge project govt has to get involved a Pvt company for a more professional approach.
Even defense companies in US, France, etc will be a private entity.
Further I find this author biased and anti Modi maybe he has a hidden agenda.
Overall Modi govt doing a descent job despite all odds …
I suspect This may be a website sponsored by either india’s vote bank politicians like congress and communists or an enemy country : AK Antony the former defence minister was deliberately made to keep our army without ammunition and let china and pakistan to increase their Military strength : Every one knows that he was worst defence minister indian has ever seen
Today congress knows that every moment the support for Modiji is increasing and our enemy countries are impatient to see that india is going to become economic and military power and make conspiracy to remove Modiji from power :
You’re free to ignore the fact that Feku purchased jets worth USD 81 Mn at USD 243 Mn for Ambani, Adani’s profit. You can suspect anything.
But you can’t deny the facts.
Feku is corrupt to the core and is selling the country.
Yes, I’ll remove Pakistan lover Feku from power.
Do what you must to earn your corrupt rotten bread by defending the scam.
Every Indian knows how ambanis have become richest in the world and after this government (two more years )he will purchase everything including air water earth and will throw all of out of India. only ambani will live on this earth plsnet.
Hey just wanted to give you a quick heads up. The words in your article seem to be running off the screen in Opera.
I’m not sure if this is a formatting issue or something to do with browser compatibility but I thought I’d post to
let you know. The layout look great though! Hope you get the problem solved soon. Kudos
Today ISRO made history and launched a record 104 satellites on a single rocket from the Sriharikota spaceport in Andhra Pradesh. India has become the first country to carry 104 satellites in a single mission.
Why am I saying this –
This is for the DUMB commenter above who thinks HAL is in capable. And that Make in India for Rafale is not possible.
So HAL founded in 1940 cannot – But Reliance can – eh!
By GOD – IF modi could, ISRO would be Reliance Space RO some day !
Modi is selling everything to Reliance – or doing so – so that they fund his next elections too.
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Wonderful research but I wonder why not go to court and in press with full force…..this could be the force which could stop bjp in 2019……..Aur do u simply doubt your own research
Civil society and the media need to build up more pressure on the Judiciary for this. The way the diaries’ case was dismissed by a judge with a link to an accused, and how it has not even been discussed adequately in our mainstream media, barring a few, should raise alarm.
If the original article had refrained from using the word ‘Bhakts’, that too dozens of times, the article would have been more objective.
What ever stated innew is 100% fact. These facts are verifyable.If Congress was thief, BJP is biggest decoit and can sell the nation for pennies.It is shame BJP who was shouting at top of their voice of corruption have not appointed LOKPAL till today. The CBI parrot is caged and Income tax is used for political ends without evidence.
If BJP is honest to public and have any Moral it should free caged Parrot (CBI) and appoint immediately LOKPAL.
I am 100% sure my Indian brothers will not see BJP doing it.They will never appoint any LOKPAL nor Free CBI to do free investigation.
A basic question: As per the original agreement, who was going to incur manufacturing cost for building the aircraft? India or Rafale? If it is the former, then $81 million per aircraft is misleading. The $10 billion deal was for 18 aircrafts in fly away condition and tech transfer. Please clarify. One of your reference articles has Parrikar quoted as saying “He said the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military.
The deal would have required around Rs 1.3 lakh crore over a period of 10-11 years, he added.”
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/parrikar-to-buy-only-36-rafales-no-need-for-126/article7268264.ece
It would have been a part of the offset clause. Check the cost per basic unit of Rafale or any similar fighter jet from any source, it is around $70-80 million only. (Sukhoi is $50 million)
Re: Parrikar’s comment,
A) Had our media got a spine, Parrkiar should be questioned on why he was quoting a figure of 90,000 crores ($14 Billion) for the deal merely a month before this 31May remark of the deal costing $20 Billion.
“peaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale’s bid for 126 fighters, stating: ‘When you talk of 126 (Rafale) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore’ — Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.”
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/four-reasons-why-rafale-could-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm
B) EVEN going by his inflated figures, if you do basic maths, the ALL INCLUSIVE cost is 20B/126= $158 million per plane. WHY are we now paying $240 million per plane?
C) Do you still trust Parrikar, the man for whom the Kursi of Goa CM was far more important than the Defense Ministry?
Mr. Midi wants to make d people believe that everything he does honestly and blame all others are corrupt. The BJP IT cell also doing overtime to brainwash the trolls to work like parrots. But we d responsible citizens have d duty to safeguard d hard fought freedom from all these people and stand neutral to save d nation.
know India totally Bhagwan bharose.
Mr Deshbakt y don’t you present your facts infront of Court and prove and prove it.
Mr Kejiriwal also provided facts against jetally and gadakri but doesn’t prove in court..
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Ajai Shukla is an Indian journalist and a retired Colonel of Indian Army.[1][2][3][4] He writes articles on defense policy, production and acquisition and currently works as consulting editor with Business Standard. He earlier worked with DD News and NDTV.[5][6]
my answer to this article the authors source
I just wonder if these are all indeed true, why opposition is not doing anything? Can author of this article pass this information to opposition to take up in next parliament session. If this is true, then its really serious.
Sabka Malik Ek! 😉 Who has the guts to take panga against Mukeshbhai today? He controls most media houses via Network 18 group. Most parties need funding from the same cronies.
Even in scams like Coal, 2G, politicians of several parties were involved, and it wasn’t the politicians or opposition, but some NGO’s, civil society activists, media and judiciary that forced a probe.
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Bogus and biased writing, The Previous Government only talked for purchase of 126 aircrafts for many years, but did nothing and weakened the Air Force and India. If they (Rafael) did not agreed to technology tranfer or production / assembly in India. They could close Rafael Deal and could purchase the Eurofighter or Gripen or MIG 29 / 31 at least.
Only taliking big speeches not serve the purpose. Where the budeted fund gone? May be used for unproductive purpose. The earlier govt has a history to neglect the MARUT Airframe and non application of Air Force in 1962 war with China. It appears the writer biased heavily and ignoring the need of IAF on the guise of making Tejas only with Kavery Engine. Day dreaming their habit. Stop the bogus display of statistics and reasoning.
The Author will say, if there is no Dassult, Will India go without Air Forve, He / she escaped the ordering to other bidder. Worse!!!
Previous government started the bidding process in 2007, had technical teams evaluate all the bids, and Dassault won it in 2012. The negotiation was going on, and India was sticking on and bargaining hard with Dassault, until Mr Modi turned the whole deal on its head.
Has Mr Modi told us what he is buying instead to cover the shortfall? Why is it sensible to have a fleet where we have medium range fighters of 2-3 makes? And why are we paying nearly triple, and not even getting any Tech Transfer, the actual strategic goal behind this deal?
Hi, I do think this is a great site. I stumbledupon it 😉 I’m going to come
back once again since I saved as a favorite it.
Money and freedom is the greatest way to change, may you be rich and continue to help others.
this article is WRONG. The original deal was signed in 2012 when DASSAULT IN FINANCIAL DIRE STRAITS WITH NO ORDERS. BUT, Congress govt dilly-dallied and NEVER IMPLEMENTED IT.
In the meantime, Dassault took advantage of their test results to BOOK ORDERS from Qatar, Malaysia, etc at FULL MARKET PRICES.
When Modi govt came to power in 2015, they tried to push through the original 2012 deal, which was TIME LIMITED AND LAPSED due to NEGLIGENCE OF CONGRESS GOVT. In fact, the congress govt was wrong to ask Rafale to guarantee HAL manufacturing -they could have asked Rafale to choose their own partner whether HAL or not.
By 2015, Rafale had NO OBLIGATION to honor the 2012 quotations, which had LAPSED. So, Rafale pushed its FULL MARKET PRICE ,Take it or leave it.
So the Modi govt had no choice other than either take the full market price rafale quoted, or let it go. But since Rafale was the best choice, they took a limited number of planes.
THE ENTIRE FAULT IS THAT OF CONGRESS GOVT FOR INCOMPETENCE AND INACTION TILL 2014, and the author of this article is glossing over this very important reality.
A. Basically, Even you are suggesting Modi govt was forced to do a BAD deal, due to Congress?! In that case, Why do this deal at all? Call Dassault’s bluff, threaten to walk off, and force them to behave!
B. Why should the taxpayer pay for transfer of technology to some other partner such as Mr Ambani? Asking guarantee for HAL assembled planes was not anything unusual, just hard bargaining. HAL has experience of dealing with Dassault built planes in the past, such as Mirage. Ambani has zero track record on this.
C. Why don’t you find the actual costs of each plane (F16, F22, Sukhoi, Eurofighter, Rafale) and post it here? Also try to find how much the HMDS costs are, and how much we are now paying, and post it here.
Also, What is the point of buying just 36 Rafales, IAF needs 200 such planes, do we want them to be using 4 different suppliers? Imagine the logistical nightmare in training pilots and maintenance staff, spare parts and everything!
A. Maybe you could call it a FINANCIALLY “bad deal” RELATIVE TO 2012. But not a bad deal relative to Qatar or Malaysia. And it doesn’t take away the fact that it is TECHNICALLY still the best deal – the Rafale is far superior to F-16/Sukhoi/Eurofighter/etc with the exception of perhaps the F-35 or F-22 (both of which appear priced higher or about the same as Rafale). Bottomline, if you need the best and the vendor is no longer dependent on your order to survive, its not surprising the vendor will prefer to protect his brand price rather than go back into a low bid deal which he did out of desperation in 2012. You have to remember that the IAF chose rafale as the best technical choice.
B. I don’t agree at all. You can’t ask somebody to guarantee something produced by another party that is forced upon him. So long as the contract/price negotiated in 2012 was adhered to, if Rafale chose ambani or whoever, it doesn’t matter. Its rafale who makes the choice. Nor can you compare past deals like Mirage etc which were assembly jobs NOT GUARANTEED by dassault. So asking Dassault to guarantee was totally non workable unless the choice was completely theirs who/how to partner with. In fact, even if ambani was selected by rafale, it would have benefited a very wide manufacturing industry in india as sources/part suppliers/eventually. You cant blame rafale for being wary of HAL while a pvt sector partner would have been more responsive and easier to work with.
C. You could look up the internet “X price” where X is these planes and it gives you a rough estimate from different aerospace journals, Jane’s defence, etc. The fact is rafale sticker price is quite expensive -around $180m -but that’s because its capability is not far from the F-35 or F-22. The F-22 is around $250m per piece and the U.S doesnt allow its export/sale to any other country. F-16 is not comparable in what was sought in the MMRCA although its also a very good choice to have ADDITIONALLY -besides its only a few million per plane, it could replace the many migs IAF has. The Sukhoi is also not in the same class as the Rafale. In fact the french air force has no plans to replace their rafale with the eurofighter, etc because the rafale is far more capable.
I would tend to agree that 36 planes a small number that doesn’t really work out very well in the overall picture but then again 36 planes are still a very useful deterrent -though one can have different opinions on the efficacy of this choice that is a different debate.
A. Eurofighter was also shortlisted by IAF panel, but was primarily dropped for being more expensive (100m/plane vs 80m/plane), and IAF’s familiarity & experience with Dassault platform (Mirage). 700+ Eurofighters are used by air forces of half a dozen nations. At the time of the deal, no one apart from France was using Rafale.
If Nigeria pays $500M for this due to corruption, should we pay that too?
btw, Malaysia was looking to pay only $2 Bn for 18 jets (still 1/4th of what we are paying for 36), and they have shelved the deal for now.
B. Tech transfer was the key reason for selecting Rafale. If no tech transfer was acceptable, we could have gone with F22 or F35. You are yourself accepting that Dassault behaviour was unfavourable to us, The renegotiated deal is not in our interest, would have been far better to threaten to walk off. You cannot have Dassault dictating that they will only partner with Bajaj Auto, or Hero Cycles to make planes in India. The re-investment clause is something we specify in the deal.
Spare parts for 36 aircraft is good for “wide manufacturing industry”, but full manufacture of 108 planes would not have been?
C. F35 superceded F22, and is used by many countries (Japan, several Nato countries, Israel). Depending on the variant (A,B or C) the F35 cost is between $90m-$120m.
36 planes, when the reiquirement was for around 200, with no idea how we are going to fill in the gaps, and you are wasting time here rather than asking these questions from the government.
you are totally wrong and presumptuous on all counts. You know nothing about to say the IAF evaluated the eurofighter as being equivalent to the rafale. Have you seen the test numbers? The eurofighter doesn’t compare to the rafale.
In fact all the published figures show otherwise -read jane’s defence journal. The rafale is vastly superior.
You are also totally ignorant about the F-35, which is not comparable to the F-22 in air superiority roles. Even in BVR role, it is bested by the F-22.
Again, all you have to do is read Jane’s defence journal.
Anyway I hope you realize your article is generally poor quality political point scoring without any technical substance.
It wasn’t our Authors, or myself, but the team of IAF experts who shortlisted Eurofighter and Rafale for the final round.
This team of experts would have not only read Jane’s defence journal, but also examined the aircraft themselves under various conditions.
Re: F35 vs F22, I was merely commenting that even F35 costs much lower, presumably you would know how much a full spec top of the range F22 cost to USAF, and compare it to the $240 M per plane we are paying for Rafale now.
I think this article has correctly captured the fact that Rafale deal renegotiation is a scam to help the crony friends, but that is the half part of the story.
There are still the remainder 160+ Aircraft needed for IAF. The real scam lies there, it will happen there.
Consider this:
The scam in making with sequence of events — (Military Spending was the way America created the massive inequality and its deep state also called as Military Industrial Complex)
India with growing economy goes the military spending way —
India’s MIG kind of Jet need is 200 Planes – now who will not want to bag this purchase offer?? (Of which atleast 108 were to be made by public sector org HAL but now – one contract has been given to Ambani, one is bidding and in partnership with Adani and another one is bidding and in partnership with Tatas)
2011 Rafael Deal Signed – 126 Jets – 11 Billion Approx
2011 – US Ambassador to India Tim Roemer Resigns (Since he could not get Congress to sign the deal with US companies) – Hindu Reports
2011 – US Ambassador goes back to US says wants to join family back in US and also joins APCO – we know who APCO is..
– About Tim Roemer – was one of the commissioner in 9/11 Investigation
– About APCO – Calls themselves as consultant – but are lobbyist to facilitate market entry
2014 – BJP Wins
2015 – BJP Reduces the Rafael deal from 126 Jets to 36 Jets – Cost reduced from 11 billion approx to 8 billion (3 billion reduced out of 11 for 90 jets — someone forgot to learn ratio and proportion in math class)
2016 – India comes within US strategic grip – India agrees to give space to US aircraft if needed in future …India now shows its allignment with US a big mistake –
2017 – BJP changes the configuration to allow US companies to qualify – finally Tim Roemer can take a sigh of relief his work at APCO did it …
2017 – BJP now in attempt to agree a deal of another 200 Jets at 12-15 billion approx price
2017 – Adani partners with Swedish Company that now qualifies under the new configuration requirement – if the deal goes through
(Swedes and US may have investment agreements)
2017 – Boieng and Lockheed Martin also bidding for contract…both these companies did not qualify in 2011 when Rafael deal was struck…but they do…—thanks to change in configuration,
2017 – Lockheed partners with Tata on June 2017 – (No Wonder Tata made a claim recently Modi is what India needs on Sept 2017)
The stories above can be found in the comments section in the same order as written here – it may help to read them in the same order
And we wonder Geopolitics is nothing to be taken seriously —
Geopolitics is a tool working and now being used to advance the framework of Capitalism, Neoliberalism – and further uses Populism or Terrorism or Nationalism or Corruption to enter the country and then leaves it with inequality and other disastrous policies…
A very informative article.
All right thinking Indians should condemn such selfish motives. The holier than thou attitude of the present Government should be exposed.
We should take this issue to the streets.
This write up is convincing . It seems , Ambanis & Adanis can twist this Government or the PM , to the extent, they want . In UPA time , corruptions did take place but the PM,then, , though little weak in comparison, politically , was not involved directly . I fear, we may have missed few issues, we will not be able to know about many deals and the election is still around 18 months , away . And will the Bhakts , realize ?
This write up is convincing . It seems , Ambanis & Adanis can twist this Government or the PM , to the extent, they want . In UPA time , corruptions did take place but the PM,then, , though little weak in comparison, politically , was not involved directly . I fear, we may have missed few issues, we will not be able to know about many deals and the election is still around 18 months , away . And will the Bhakts , realize ?
Reply
Modi has became the brand synonymous with corruption. The money he has taken during his 2014 election campaign from Ambani and Adani needs to be repaid here the question of Indian defense takes backbench. It hardly matters whether India in shortage of Aircraft or got defeated due to lack of ammunition etc. Modi’s only and only purpose to make Ambani and Adani richer. If India needs to be Balkanized for Ambani-Adani’s profit he will broke India without second thought. that is what Ex- President Pranab Mukherjee forecast.
N.B:- Bhakts are idiots most of them are from BJP IT CELL and few of them are ISI agents too. so, do not waste time ignore them as street dogs.
A good article published with very good information and evidences. Many people are saying file an PIL in court, what has happened to the earlier PIL published against the UPA Scams , Is there anybody punished (or) the government revived any corruption money, practically nothing happened expect the information which mainstream media has taken to the people helped BJP to come to power and start their loot.
Personally i feel this type of evidences should be directly shown to the common public as most of them not using any social media but make their votes based on the main stream media data.
As a common man paying 30 % of my hard earned income to the government as income tax and paying tax for each and everything i buy, thinking that my country will become a nice place for everyone to live but this politicians loot us for their personal need and fame.
1. I have been working with TATAs. I happened to attend Bangalore Air Shows where I saw Rafale getting demonstrated.They were impressive of all the competeTERS nces. Therefore choice of Rafael seems to be Justified like Bofors.
2.The deal of UPA regime went in to Jeopardy on account of selection of Indian partner. Why TATAs were not considered ? TATAs would have made JV with HAL and executed the project.They are the most experienced in Aerospace having already some running units while reliance is a fresh player.
3. In such dealings why not we invite bids from Indian partners and decide on competitive basis.Why do we project only Reliance selectively ?
Exactly my thoughts!
Even if we agree for a minute that, for some reason, it was better to have a private partner for Rafale, than the much experienced HAL.
Why not do a partial disinvestment in HAL?
How did Govt choose this partner? was there any competitive bidding for this?
There are companies such as Tata, L&T etc with far greater experience in precision engineering, how does Reliance become the best partner?
Hello Nilesh
“2. The deal of UPA regime went in to Jeopardy on account of selection of Indian partner. Why TATAs were not considered ? TATAs would have made JV with HAL and executed the project.They are the most experienced in Aerospace having already some running units while reliance is a fresh player.”
It is upto Aircraft vendor i.e Dassault to select its partner in India and it is also the responsibility of Dassault to ensure delivery and quality i.e Dassault cannot hide behind its Indian vendor in case of any issues. Hence it is upto Dassualt to choose Tata’s, Reliance or anybody else. Nothing to do with the Government.
This is a Govt to Govt deal, & not even directly between India & Dassault. India will place the order on Govt of France for the Aircraft and in return Govt of France will give guarantees w.r.t delivery, availability of spares etc. This eliminates any possibility of corruption / kickbacks / lobbying etc. Refer article linked below
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/future-rafale-deals-will-also-be-under-govt-to-govt-defence-minister-manohar-parrikar/
YES IT IS FOR DUSSAULT TO CHOOSE PARTNER BUT HOW IT CAN CHOOSE PARTNER INSTANTLY. IT IS DEFINITELY INFLUENCE WHEN PRIME MINISTER PROJECTS SOME ONE AS PARTNER. IS RELIANCE BETTER THAN HAL ?
Saaf Baat..
Good articulation. But if India not given engine technology in return , this deal should be scrapped in national interest. Otherwise, it would also meet the Kaveri Basin fate.
India resource, which India buy from one of its citizen.
(Further, cost of development was provided by tax payers under beautiful PPP contract but profit is only owned by an individual.
Modi’s Gujarat working should be probed that why a oil corporation of Gujarat lost 20000cr ruppes.
Rafael deal should be probed as it seems something is rotten somewhere.
This is definitely a Deal to favour International finanace capital and Ambanis.
They have preferred over HAL. It is a scam by Modi Govt. to felicitate its financers. They have compromised the techonlogy and nations Money for the sake of favouratism and personal political interests.
na khaunga na khane dunga is Modi’ s matntra for corruption. For Ambani the mantra has gone crazy like bikash in gujrat
The steady and high increase in the price of the Rafael aircraft whose manufacturer Dassault is in poor shape including a poor reputation, is not justifiable. The Swedish Gripen and the new MIG and Sukhoi models are better. Moreover, the Russians as usual also transfer their latest technology. So why this financial bonanza to Anil & Mukesh Ambani? But why is HAL kept out of production process. They are the most experienced Indian fighter plane/bomber technology production unit. Modi has a lot to answer for. He will finance the future 2019 elections through this sweetheart deal.
Exactly. Even if we agree that Rafale was the best option based on the IAF’s technical criteria, as compared to Grippen or Russian planes, the transfer of technology being shelved does not make any sense.
Further, there is no clarity from the Government on what their plan is. IAF reportedly needed 200 MMRCA’s. Now we are being told 36 shall suffice. What is the plan precisely?
p.s. If you are THE Prof Kamal Mitra Chinoy, we owe you for being one of the first people to spot the issues with this deal! _/\_
Wish the author had done better research than this. Also calling bhakts and stuff in a serious article like this undermines it completely. Kindly read the cost analysis of the deal so the next time you write an article out of your area of expertise you desist. Also other people frothing at their mouth always have two viewpoints one from the party in contention and another from someone making the accusations, before carrying on with the original baseless claims unless ofcourse you are being paid to pimp the allegations.
http://thestrategictimes.com/debunking-controversy-indian-airforces-16-years-wait-a-details-of-rafale-deal/
1) The maintenance /vanilla cost argument is bogus, it was already included in the call for RFPs
Quoting the Defence Ministry statement, the website http://www.defence-aerospace.com Published a piece on 28 August 2007. Elaborating the details in RFP for the price calculation, it wrote,
2. As we have pointed several times, weaponry upgrades and integrations do not seem to justify the cost escalation. If they indeed do, why isn’t the government able to simply provide it, and is being evasive about it?
Why should the Govt respond to any fake news from you? Who are you? What is your credibility that the Govt should discuss details of the defence deal with you? If you think Govt is wrong and causing loss to public exchequer, file a case in the court of law and the Govt will respond there. Any unscruplous person can write any crap and the Govt need not respond to such non-sense.
Going by your argument, if Dassault signed the deal in 2012 and everything the erstwhile Govt did was hunkydory, why was the initial shipment of 18 planes not delivered by 2014? What steps were initiated to get the assembly done in HAL until 2014? Literally nothing.
It was because, contrary to what you say, the deal of 10.2 billion was just the base price for the base procurement and the fine tuning of other aspects were still being negotiated. If you do not know, read the news item from your fellow media house
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/dassault-rafale-wins-usd-10-4-billion-indian-air-force-jet-fighter-deal-sources-571309
which reads “Sources say Defense ministry experts are still fine-tuning pricing details, including the cost of on-board weaponry and royalties for producing the aircraft in India”. A basic cursory reading would have saved you from this piece of crap.
You want us to believe that the cost of the project was only 10.2 billion as dassault have claimed “when Dassault themselves had said they were sticking to the RFP price.” Does Dassault say what was the RFP price anywhere? The French Govt has set things clear again appearing in the news which exposes your lies that the deal was finalized for 10.2 billion.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafale-deal-fair-says-france-reliance-defence-warns-congress-1775923
You also claim that IAF knows better about the capability and the costs and the same IAF chief claims
“This Rafale Deal Is Cheaper, Better”
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/this-rafale-deal-is-cheaper-better-air-force-chief-dhanoa-backs-centre-1776515
Why you do not want to believe the IAF now? All your lies stand exposed with the French Govt saying “After Rafale emerged as the lowest bidder in an international tender in 2012, the final deal for 126 aircraft was never closed by the UPA government”
So please stop this non-sense which is void of facts and based out of imagination and hearsay.
1. In a democracy, everyone has a right to question the government. We raised this issue in Oct 2016, now that the main opposition parties have raised it too, the government needs to provide the answers.
2. The details of the work sharing agreement was being worked out with HAL, and was nearly 95% completed in Mar 2015, when Mr Modi suddenly cancelled the original deal.
3. Nobody is raising an issue about the quality of the planes. If the Government of India is not answering the simple questions in a straight manner by providing a breakdown of the modified costs, and instead dragging IAF chief into politics, it raises suspicions even further. Also, I did not expect the Army chief to say, Guys Bofors is a crap gun, nor do I expect the IAF chief to say anything negative about any plane in the fleet.. even MIG 21.
1) Government need not and should not share the details about defence deals to public just because it is a democracy and some dumbo is shooting aimlessly for political reasons. These are inter country deals and hence secrecy need to be maintained which is why you are shooting in the air asking for details which cannot be shared as per the deal. First learn this basic rule before throwing non-sense. The only logical approach is to move the courts (if you have solid evidence of corruption) and let the courts deal with it which you people will not do as you have no proof and just “shoot and scoot” crap with no evidence or valid data.
2) Now the cat is out of the bag. So the deal was not finalized until March 2015 and the 10.2 billion quoted was just an initial base line price. So all your crap stand no value.
3) Govt of India need not give the breakdown just because some junk journalist comes up with a crooked story built on lies. If you have a case to make go to the courts. What knowledge you have to decide what is right? Let the courts decide and if you have content and proof go to the courts.
Else shut this shameless business of throwing muck with no evidence and do some meaningful job.
1) This is laughable, (am guessing you are a Modi Bhakt!) It is public money, being spent on a plane and weaponry from other parties, which aren’t particularly secret. While doing research for this story, we were easily able to dig public details presented to French senate, re base cost of planes as paid by French Air Force, deals from other countries and so on.
2) Dassault had clearly said it was going to abide by the RFP price. Go check your facts, before wasting my time.
3) Give the details to the nation, in the parliament.
We are doing our job, thanks for your pointless advice anyways. Bye.
1) If there is no answer and after sycophant of 10 Janpath are exposed, they resort to name calling which shows their worth. No wonder you are trying to go that way as you are completely exposed with your non-sense. Enough of your lies – If you have the India France bilateral agreement of the deal, challenge you to upload the PDF copy in this website. Else, get lost.
2) What was the RFP price? What were they negotiating for 2 years after 2012? Shame on you for writing nonsense without any basis and wasting everyone’s time.
3) Why was the 18 jets not delivered between 2012 and 2014, if everything was finalized. You might have access to Dassault office papers as well. Check and find out and let us know.
A person who does not know how the Govt and International deals work is writing non-sense. Go and first learn how the Government operates and how the Bi-lateral deals are done before writing crap. Shame that you call yourself journalist- you are another Presstitute with Zero knowledge on the subject at hand and writing piece of shit with no evidence.
Show your evidence to the people of this country instead of writing non-sense and expecting the Govt to respond to your crap.
I can also call you a stooge of Ambani and Modi, who is trying to sell country’s interest.
But, I have avoided personal name calling and patiently tried to answer.
Please cut the bullshit and personal rhetoric, and stick to the points.
1) Get Lost? It is you who is here! LOL
2) You don’t even know the RFP price, and have written so much wasting my time?!
3) Modi announced the decision to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf on 10 Apr 2015, how many jets have been delivered in the 2.5 years?
why are you still avoiding this news . https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/nda-govt-saved-over-12k-crore-in-rafale-deal/articleshow/61760997.cms
Media plants and headlines management has been done right at the beginning of the scam too. That doesn’t prove anything.
So, why doesn’t the Defense Minister give a detailed breakdown explaining how 36 planes for $8.8 Bn are cheaper than 126 planes @ $10.2 Bn?
Why is she running away from providing the figures officially?
Another news item that exposes the lies of this author (who seem to be a congress stooge)
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/no-money-this-fiscal-for-rafale-jets-a-k-antony/
If he can read it with open eyes, he can see that AK antony clearly saying “Asserting that the negotiations in the deal were still progressing” and if he can understand basic English it is clear that the negotiations on the deal were not finalized and the 10.2 billion was only the base price. This has come from the horse’s mouth and not from any Tom, Dick or Harry.
Again, it is laid threadbare when he says “There are complaints about the procedure of calculating the life cycle cost and that issue is not yet settled. Before bringing the deal before the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, we would like to get clear on that aspect,” he told a press conference.”
Also, this guy lies that HAL would have got the technical know how through Technology Transfer which is simple ignorance. Again, AK Antony writes in his piece below that appeared in NDTV – “The company was not ready to transfer technology as part of the agreement.”
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/former-defence-minister-ak-antony-questions-rafale-deal-with-france-765520
In essence, this article is a bunch of lies which has been debunked by AK Antony himself in various interviews and opinion pieces. This fool is clearly exposed.
If you know what is the RFP price tell else keep quiet? It is you who is wasting time with selectively answering the questions posted.
1) If you have the India France bilateral agreement of the deal, challenge you to upload the PDF copy in this website. You seem to know more about the French deal through your sources in French Senate. First get that and then talk.
2) The French Govt has clarified that the deal was not finalized until UPA term ended and you lie that RFP price is final. Whom should we trust? Definitely not you with questionable credentials and zero first hand inputs.
3) Anybody with some basic knowledge of the deal would know that the delivery was scheduled after 36 months (which is 3 years). Do you have any such date for the 18 jets as per the deal that you have first hand information about?
Common sense would mean it is one and half years or at the max 2 years which is the tenure of the UPA Govt. Why did it not materialize in there tenure if the deal was finalized as you claim?
Anyway, AK Antony has called your bluff in his article I have given which exposes your lies threadbare.
Read the article, already mentions the RFP price.
1. As I have now repeated several times, Secrecy about the new deal is the issue, Govt is hiding the details. So, don’t waste my time.
2. Repeated already. Pls. Refer to Dassault CEO interview to PTI in early 2015.
3. Estimated delivery of 18 was originally expected to start in 2017, but this depends on Dassault’s order book, they also got some other orders around the same time.
The meteor factor should be focused. As we know the last time PM was in the negotiation of the deal, the then Defence Minister was I Goa inaugurating some kind of fish outlet. Now, while escalation of price with the inclusion of meteor was being done Ambanis were there. Is there a technical opinion sought out by IAF before finalizing the deal?
Well this article will again show how some people with anti modi mindset will keep on spread fake information to carry out their agenda .Now national news paper comes out with detailed piece how NDA actually end up saving money . https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/nda-govt-saved-over-12k-crore-in-rafale-deal/articleshow/61760997.cms
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If you know what is the RFP price tell else keep quiet? It is you who is wasting time with selectively answering the questions posted.
1) If you have the India France bilateral agreement of the deal, challenge you to upload the PDF copy in this website. You seem to know more about the French deal through your sources in French Senate. First get that and then talk.
2) The French Govt has clarified that the deal was not finalized until UPA term ended and you lie that RFP price is final. Whom should we trust? Definitely not you with questionable credentials and zero first hand inputs.
3) Anybody with some basic knowledge of the deal would know that the delivery was scheduled after 36 months (which is 3 years). Do you have any such date for the 18 jets as per the deal that you have first hand information about?
Common sense would mean it is one and half years or at the max 2 years which is the tenure of the UPA Govt. Why did it not materialize in there tenure if the deal was finalized as you claim?
Anyway, AK Antony has called your bluff in his article I have given which exposes your lies threadbare.
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1) It is surprising that you operate with zero knowledge of how the Govt works when you claim you are a journalist. Any Bi-lateral agreement comes with a secrecy clause which means it cannot be disclosed to public. We have other mechanism like “Standing Committee of Defence” (comprised of all parties – http://www.prsindia.org/parliamenttrack/parliamentary-committees/composition-of-standing-committees-3439/) to look into these, if there are issues or corruption. Also, we have PAC and CAG and finally Supreme Court where the details can be shared. Saying that we are the public and public money is used to buy the jets and all details should be shared to the press is plain stupidity and ignorance to the core.
You first claimed that you have all info regarding the deal “While doing research for this story, we were easily able to dig public details presented to French senate, re base cost of planes as paid by French Air Force, deals from other countries and so on” – which is why I asked to upload the details in the page. When cornered and no way to run, you are now saying “secrecy is the issue” without understanding it is a bilateral deal. So get your basics right.
2) The price in RFP is the base price and the finer details were not confirmed. It is for this reason I challenged to say what was your understanding of the price as per RFP and you are not able to answer but is writing crap stories. Even as per your source[3], 10.2 billion is the base price and it was expected to bump up to 15 billion on further negotiations. Also, this 15 billion does not include on-board weaponry as is mentioned in your source itself. At least, read your sources properly.
Extract for your easy reference “The sources said that the price of the tender — including training and maintenance may reach $15 billion — due to cost escalations in the wake of rising inflation.
The negotiations will also include the cost of on-board weaponry and royalties for producing the aircraft in India.”
3) You say that it was to be delivered in 2017 but Dassault’s order book might alter its schedule. If you read your story, you said Dassault were on the verge of bankruptcy and hence gave India a killer deal as their other export contracts failed. Suddenly they got a huge order book?? Stick to one stand. If the deal was already signed, as per you, why was no plane delivered yet. The point is the deal was never finalized which the French Govt and AK Antony has confirmed and only negotiations on various items were going on and only the base price was fixed. Read your source [3] properly before bluffing.
4) Another lie “Bye Bye Make in India. Bye Bye Technology Transfer. Bye Bye all the benefits to India, based on which Dassault won the bid in the first place.” which AK Antony himself has called a lie. He has mentioned “There is no Technology Transfer” as part of the deal.
In essence, your article is a bunch of lies with no real material evidence which will the thrown out of the court in the very first hearing itself which is why you are playing with the people giving cooked up data.
1) We have provided the references to back each of our claims already.
2) As mentioned in the article, weaponry cost doesn’t justify the increase in price from $80m to $240m. If you have a precise breakdown, please let me know.
3) Yes, Dassault got several other orders after the India deal, why is that so surprising?
4) Check your facts again, AK Antony was probably referring to the new deal. 😉
1) You have nothing to validate your claims. All that you have are gossips and hearsays and empty challenges to Govt asking them to come clean based on your imaginary stories with no material evidence. Also, why are the opposition parties with the numerous channels mentioned above, in my earlier post, not challenging the Govt.
As a responsible citizen, If you have tons of evidences as you claim (which no one else can see), why don’t you go to the court? You know the result and hence playing crap here.
2) It in the Indian Express which is your source [3]. If it is not justified, why are you basing your story on that non-reliable source. Go and Ask Indian express for justification before you use it as your source.
3) As per you, after Dassault got Order from India, they got numerous orders and hence have put India’s order in back burner, waiting for Modi to come to power. Shameful excuse.
You run a company which is on the verge of bankruptcy. You get a big order and you say that the company will give an estimate for delivery based on some non-existent order that they might get after this deal is closed. Brilliant logic though for people with common sense it looks stupid.
4) Think you do not know to read English. Whenever you are sober, read through the news item shared already where he mentions, “quoting below”
“During his tenure as Defence Minister, Mr Antony said what was being sought to be achieved was acquisition of 18 aircraft in fly-away condition and 108 to be manufactured along with technology transfer agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.
The company was not ready to transfer technology as part of the agreement.
Mr Antony insisted that neither the Prime Minister, nor the Defence Minister or the Armed Forces could procure any equipment bypassing the Defence Acquisition Council.”
Plain English talking about the deal during UPA for 126 aircrafts.
The problem is you are writing crap without even a cursory understanding of the deal. You have not even read your sources properly where Indian Express quotes it is expected to go to 15 billion and beyond. Just to please your pay masters, you have cooked up some crap. When exposed, with nowhere to hide, you are simply saying “reference given already” and other non-sense responses.
You stand exposed with your lies. If you have evidences, give point blank answers with direct references.
1. Already answered several times, cannot keep on repeating the same.
2. We have already provided the average costs of Meteor BVR missiles, and Elbit HMDS etc, with references.
3. Obviously, if Dassault got other orders it will fulfil them first, now the first jets are expected in 2019, Modi wasted 1 year in negotiating the old deal, then suddenly changed it, and wasted another 1.5 years in doing re-negotiation.
4. ToT to HAL was central to the original RFP, read about it yourself before wasting my time.
We do not normally publish frivolous comments with Ad-Hominem name calling. If you don’t have anything to support your claims, you have a choice of not commenting here.
The simple answer you have is “you have nothing to say” and hide under the veil saying “already answered”. Simply repeating the same lines like a parrot without opening your eyes to the facts when AK Antony himself has clarified it is not correct.
All you have is a bunch of lies which you cannot substantiate and hence has to “beat around the bush” without able to answer point blank to the questions raised.
IF you have answers to the questions posted, have the guts to post it “even it means re-posting”. The answer is simple which is a clear “NO” as all you have is a bunch of lies. Your own sources have exposed your lies.
You stand exposed with your lies and hence no point wasting our time with a “FRAUD” like you.
As I already said, While researching for our original article on this, we were able to easily get documents from the French Senate website, detailing their Air Force’s expenses on buying Rafales.
So any claims about Non-disclosure/secrecy requirements from the French themselves sound like vague excuses to me.
Ministers have been tweeting propaganda graphics with details of the weaponry that India is getting. So, our enemies already know what package we are buying.
Our enemies also buy weapons, & know what it costs.
(Even you can find out the cost of these, e.g. Meteor BVR, or Elbit HMDS, which we have already provided in references)
So basically, Is all this “secrecy” is only from the taxpayer whose funds are being used to enrich Mr Ambani?
Nice.
p.s. Any comments with personal attack will be removed.
The question is about this deal and not how much French paid for their purchase. If based on your update, enemies know everything, what was the issue with the “scorpene data” leak. The costs vary in various transactions and saying enemies know all the costs is kiddish.
If you think there is no NDA, get the document and publish here. Your reasoning seem to be vague and if there is no secrecy requirements, get the details (from french website) and publish here.
Claiming ambani only benefited seems more of a propaganda sans logic or evidence. Get your evidence on the same and go to court.
Else all these are plain non-sense with no evidence to substantiate the tall claims made.
As widely reported in late 2017 when RaGa first made these allegations, the UPA never signed the deal and instead dilly-dallied negotiating with Dassault. So, the question of the deal price exceeding estimates under UPA does not arise because it was only a projected figure, and not a definitive one. The very reason why UPA did not finalise the deal was some of the stringent terms of Dassault which also include cost component for various aspects. The NDA, after coming to power, signed the deal realising the urgency due to weak air defence in view of the China, Pakistan twin danger. Also, to the best of my knowledge, no independent watchdog or media report has so far seen anything fishy in the deal. It’s only RaGa, Cong and their media that hv been making vague allegations. If Rahul thinks there was corruption, let him put those evidences or details in public. As an ordinary citizen, I’m also curious to know, to take the NDA to cleaners. But to merely throw mud and ask others to come clean is silly politics. Rahul says PM Modi is mum on the 3 questions he is raising. The most important, the confidentiality clause. FM Jaitley countered it today saying how former president Pranab Mukherjee (when he was prez) during UPA, stated in one of his addresses, that the details of defence deals cannot be disclosed as they are classified. I don’t think RaGa is too innocent to not know this. To use different yardsticks for themselves and their opponents may work in short-term for politicians. But people propagating the same under the garb of media is nothing but spreading falsehood. My only demand is, let someone come up with clinching evidence on the transperency of the deal or the lack of it, instead of keeping it alive as an issue based on mere suspicion, that, until today, doesn’t seem to have any basis.
Irrespective of refusal to divulge details in some other case, why is the government hiding behind this excuse?
Also, this “not disclosing the prices” was certainly not the norm. When the UPA government faced a question in Parliament on March 4, 2013 on the purchase and upgrade cost of the Mirage 2000 from Dassault, it tabled a detailed answer.
“The last contracted price for each Mirage 2000 aircraft in the year 2000 was Rs 133 crore. The contract for the upgrade was signed in 2011, wherein, the cost of upgrading one aircraft was Rs 165 crore”, the UPA government answered, adding further details.
Furthermore, top MoD officials have already revealed exact details of the contract, including a cost breakdown, in an off-the-record briefing on September 24, 2016 – the day the Rafale IGI and commercial contracts were signed.
So, I personally do not buy this argument. This is getting murkier.
Also, didn’t Defense Minister know about the “TOP SECRET” agreement with France, when she promised us all a complete breakdown of prices in Nov 2017?
Those who are saying that asking questions or labelling allegations of fishy deal is against India than why doesn’t the same applies to those who raised their voices against Bofors?
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I don’t understand “by how much” Modi’s deal is bad.
UPA deal was for
1. 18 fly away planes for say $10.2billion – $X billion
2. 3 Crore Man hours for $X billion from Dassault ( HAL was expecting 9 Crore hours BTW, so effectively this was to be re-negotiated something like beyond 3cr hours any extra hours at $z rate. I don’t know.. its up in the air for imagination.)
3. 108 to be license produced by HAL spending extra money(say be $Y billion more.. it can be $20 billion or $30 billion) and HAL time and quality.
4. Technology Transfer (Technology transferred to be used only for making 108 planes after that can’t make a single plane. But yes all parts. HAL only.)
5. 50% Offset : Reliance, Kalyani, L&T etc. to make diaper/samosa(30%) , air craft parts(20%)
6. Parts and Maintenance: only 18 by Rafale with always fighting and pointing fingers as HAL for quality of parts. Rest HAL maintaining on its own with no guarantee of parts.
So total cost of planes = $10.2billion – $X billion + $Y billion + ( At least 6Crore x $Z rate)
Innocent price= $10 billion – $5 billion + $30 billion + ( 6cr *$100=$6b ) = $41 billion
Aggressive price = $10b – $5b + $20b + (6cr*70=$4b) = $29b (want to think Offset numbers are still innocent, HAL worked on war schedule with all Tyag and Balidan and impeccable productivity)
So innocent price per plane : $325m
aggressive price per plane : $230m
*first 18 plance at price per plane : $277m
Modi Deal :
1. 36 for 8.74 billion
2. 50% Offset : Reliance, Kalyani, L&T etc. to make diaper/samosa/air craft parts
3. Parts and Maintenance: 5 Years free. $xb after 5 years for another 10 years = till 2034
Innocent Price : $9b – $4.5b + ($4b -$2b) = $6.5b
Aggressive Price : $9b – $4.5b + ($9b -4.5b) = $9b
So innocent price per plane : $180m
aggressive price per plane : $250m
Just 36 planes pure price = $125m
——————————–
Innocent Man : Modi deal is great in per piece and its a concluded deal so no more waiting. But if we needed 126 then whats the use of 36. Price may not be scam, but these are just BMW cars in AirForce can they win war against China ?
Aggressive Man : Modi deal is bad by $20m per plane, but its concluded one. Kaveri engine will make Tejas our main aircraft.
Anti-Modi : Reliance is going to get $4.5b , Modi $1b. There is no Make in India. We paid $250m per plane.
Modi-Bhakt : We got best deal at $125m. Kaveri engine is getting upgraded as part of offset deal for Tejas and Tejas will be our main war horse and Rafale acting as its choice weapon. This is the cheapest deal.
Rationalist : Hmm.. I know numbers are like mini-skirt , show a lot but hide important stuff. If there are no kickbacks we will come to know and if this is good deal time will tell. Because like there is war by 2020 with China.
10.2 Billion was the bid for 126 planes, with maintenance costs.
This increased price “news” started appearing late in the scene.
As our other article pointed out,
1) Dassault said they were sticking to the original bid.
2) yes, there was an issue about 2.7x person hours needed by HAL, but think about salaries in India vs those in France too.
3) the work share issue had been reaolved, the sticking point was the guarantees on the planes built by HAL.
Finally,
4) AFTER Modi’s deal, Parrikar cited figures of $14Bn. (90,000 Crores for 126, 700 per plane).
So, fail to see how your figures of $41 Bn make sense.
Do the math. You didn’t see the calculation that I have put for $41b ? (BTW its just a calculation without actual costs not counting).
If For Dassault it costs say $4.5b to build 18 planes how much it will cost HAL to build 108 planes over next 5-10 years?
Remember, in business you will try to get profitable in first tranche in long term deal.
You are using the supposed cost from the revised deal (although I had seen slightly lower figures for the base cost of the plane itself), and then using that as an extrapolation for the cost for HAL in the old deal.
Of course, if you extrapolate with an inflated cost, you will get vastly inflated costs for the old deal too.
See below, I have done some estimates. the absolute MAX cost in the old deal for 126 planes would come to $20-25 billion assuming $50m for extra weaponry.
Also, you mention “we needed 36, why buy 126”.
Actually, IAF need is that of about 200 aircraft of this class.
Modi government is looking to buy single engine jets (Saab Grippen types) now, that had previously been rejected by IAF in the technical evaluation.
So, the like for like comparison, would be when you compare the total cost of 100 odd Grippen too.
See what I have written is “if we needed 126 then whats the use of 36”, but you still read it as “we needed 36, why buy 126” this is all because you are looking at my answer and whole saga through a goggle of anti-safron , anti-modi with special view finder for a Modi-bhakt.
Apologies, I misread.
I am not looking at you with any glasses. I have seen enough hardcore bhakt comments (see for yourselves above, and trust me, lot more abuses/threats that we do not find fit to even publish) to tell one.
You have obviously made some interesting remarks, I was pointing out that the full cost of the “suddenly chosen new plan” by Mr Modi will only be clear after we actually buy the remainder of the planes.
Original cost ~ $80m/plane.
18 @ Mérignac = $1.44 B.
Labour cost per plane (estimated, Max) $25M (Dassault employs about 8,000 people in its factories in France in total, many of whom are engaged in the production of Falcom. From the 2016 Annual Reports, ~70% costs were on purchases of components, 30% on “personnel expenses” )
Even if HAL’s labour cost were supposedly 2.6x, (which isn’t strictly correct, an average French worker is far costlier), the cost becomes 2.6×25 = 65m, add remainder 55M of non-labour cost, comes to 120M.
At this rate, the total cost for 108 jets would have been 120×108=12.96Bn + 1.44 (French made) = $14.4 Bn (closer to the 90K Crores quoted by Parrikar too)
Even if HAL was to make them at double the cost of $160/plane, the full cost for original deal would have been 160×108=17.28Bn + 1.44B = $18.72Bn
Now, let us add 50m/plane for weaponry costs. (This is a very vague estimate, this is the bit where prices look most inflated in the revised deal), and we get 6Bn.
In total .. we see a range of $20-25 Bn for the 126 planes, including weaponry, which comes to 158m-198m per plane.
So, by this calculation, we are paying about 85-45m extra per plane.
But, we need more details on the weaponry/add-on costs in order to determine it properly.
Also, we need to keep in mind the strategic benefits of technology transfer, employment generated locally, and indigenous capabilities developed as a result of the original deal.
All of this evolved as a result of a policy framework that evolved over a long period of time and was designed by experts. By the looks of it, this was suddenly thrown out of the window, with even the defence minister appearing clueless about it.
re: “4. Technology Transfer (Technology transferred to be used only for making 108 planes after that can’t make a single plane. But yes all parts. HAL only.)”
There was a clause to extend the deal for another 63 planes.
You have to see the strategic perspective in the old deal. How long can we keep buying expensive toys? Need to develop indigenous capabilities.
If you have to involve private sector, do it sensibly, disinvest some shares in HAL, or get companies like L&T, Tata, involved, who at least have some experience with precision engineering.
It’s not a great idea to let Lizzat Papad become the supplier of components to IAF.
Lizzat Papad .. very racist ( If you think what I mean..and you mean..).. but I got it you meant gujju/baniya Reliance.
How can Lizzat Papad become supplier of Aero Space parts ? Think yourself as Lizzat Papad and you see there is business opportunity . Like another Lizzat Papad wala once went from Sari to Petrolium Refinery.
If you are Lizzat Papad and see that there is moany to be made defence, only thing you have to do is buy a company that is known to be experienced in making defence manufacturing, like say Pipavav Defence which is under huge debt but with partnership with other experts like SAAB , and then start hiring from public sector companies and retired defence guys. Well now you just need to start manufacturing just like everything else you manufactured by putting good investment, management and you have got Lizzat Defence.
Now is this normal ?
Boeing ? a timber merchant.
Bombardier ? Snow car maker.
SpaceX which became better than ISRO ? a website developer/paypal baniya..
Reliance Petrochemical ? Sari seller Texttile and then refinery and GAS exploration ?
People who see business they see that manufacturing is all about management. Any body can make Papad, just try to make largest scale, quality and profit. You have to hire right. We have many job seekers,
However if you truely want a world class company to come in then we will have to give it 100% equity model, companies will come and will build expertise of our people too.
We should have asked Dassault, make it with your 100% ownership in India.. it will be happy and it will be good for Indian salaries and good bribes too .. you know for whom I mean! Lizzat will give bribes at its rate not like a gora.
BTW “Vijay” December 12, 2017 22:11 is not me.
Some one is being crazy.. and trying to malign my responses.
We all know IAF needs 200 aircrafts, but frankly IAF has become a museum of different kind of air crafts (same as how we were in 1965, 1962 and 1971). While pakistanis had lot of same and better planes.
With this circus of different kind of airplanes we can’t prepare enough pilots to be worthy on most aircrafts that we have. neither can we maintain them as numbers are so diverse. Learning and maintaining one family of planes is easier on mechanics.
The MMR requirement itself was one of a kind in whole wide world. Looks like the requirement itself was murkier or worse it shows lack of vision and understanding creating an air force for fighting war and winning it.
War is not going to be a sabji/pizza where little of MMR, little more of Tejas,slight hint of Sukhoi with some punch of Prithvi with base Indian ARMY with and side dish of 9 cruncy Submarines.
But Indian response to China’s attack will certainly look like this sabji/pizza with tadka.
My previous reponse was analysis of the deal and its costing. While in my opinion we didn’t need 126 MMR at all , we need 200 Tejas or 200 F16 or 200 Fifth Generation on order. MMRs deal at UPA price was also going to bankrupt India and leave India broke to make any progress in actual funding of planes (Numbers again?please do the math.. the price was not for 126 planes to be delivered.. 108 to be manufactured at Indian HAL’s cost with only 3CR man hours estimated from DASSAULT for quality and design overlook, HAL wanted ~9CR man hours from DASSAULT and leaving this aside there will cost of material and component manufacturing by HAL and from third parties in India/abroad and work force payments/training/hiring which is actual manufacturing of plane how much it would have cost India if not same cost as $5b as which it cost Dassault then 70% of that cost too because Indian work is also not going to be cheap labor without quality reruns over HAL speed of delivery over next 20 years). Mean while if we need few parts urgently we will get them from France at GREAT rate?
Remove goggle, do the role play and try numbers.
I partly agree with you there.
1. It is arguable if we actually need to spend on the full 200 MMRCAs, why not get the bare minimum (100?) to replace the ageing fleet in the next 5 years, and look at getting an FGFA by 2030s?
2. Yes, having too many separate kinds of aircraft would become a logistical and training nightmare for IAF. I do not understand at all why single engine grippen/F16 is being reconsidered at all?
It’s better to preach to a donkey that to argue with a Bhakt!
Anyone with a peanut-sized brain and a fair understanding of the geopolitics know that War is Business! If Bhakts didn’t get it, they better do some basic research on how the unholy Military-Industrial-Complex functions in the United States. And whenever corporates get behind a government, that country and it’s people are doomed; US being the best example. They have been into perpetual wars one after the other needlessly, sending their soldiers to kill and get killed fighting the Bankers’ wars. Needless to say that the country is in severe debt.
Keeping that in mind, the entry of Ambanis and Adanis into the defence sector (with no prior experience in defence technology), itself should have send the red flags going up all over. These people wouldn’t get into anything but for the profits.
The anti-incumbency with UPA combined with a well oiled propaganda machinery built around Modi and his supposed development bandwagon of Vibrant Gujarat and Gujarat Model have thoroughly fooled a sizable portion of Indians (like Bhakts) into believing that Modi is an able administrator devoted to the cause of India. There’s nothing more foolish than that. Bhakts fail to understand that Modi was nothing but the corporate choice who was pushed to the PMO for their own benefits. The reason being that under the leadership of Modi as the PM, they can extend their plunder to the rest of India, without any accountability, just as they enjoyed in Gujarat when Modi was its CM. (Remember, Adani was able to grab a lot of public land at dirt cheap rates like Re. 1 per square metre with Modi’s blessings). Therefore, pushing such a person to PMO would only further their prospects in the long run. In short, Modi is nothing but a corporate henchman doing the bidding for his cronies, who in return fund his election campaign. Period. If there’s any doubt, look at the last 4 years of Modi’s rule. Almost everything that he has done turned out to be beneficial to the corporates and nothing to the ordinary public.
@saaf baat
Good work.. go ahead…. Leaders are for people… People r not for leaders….. None is an exception…. Scam is a scam……
https://youtu.be/TcCeutRs43c
इस वीडियो में राज ठाकरे ने आरोप लगाया है कि (मोदी) सरकार ने नोटबंदी के दौरान अपने फायदे के लिए ज्यादा करंसी छापी। इन सब आरोपों में कुछ न कुछ सच्चाई है
Dear Manu !
Military Industrial Complex .. You discoverred that Modi is introducing Military Industrial Complex to India !
We all know what is MIC is but,
1. When we bought Folland Gnats , from private Military Industry of Britain(Folland Aircraft) ( LastName/Surnames : Folland )
2. Canberra that bought, from British private company English Electric (Surname : Dick, Kerr, Nelson, Pybus)
3. When we bought Bofors it was Military Industry of Sweden..
4. Sukhoi is from Sukhoi Aviation Military Industrial Combine company ( owned 25%+1 share by Finmeccanica .. this is funny Italian briber)
We can probably say that ” HAL HF-24 Marut” and Tejas LCA these are the only non MIC fighter planes. Chetak and Druvs are also non MIC. Mig21/27/29/etc also can non MIC.
Assumption : We consider HAL as not MIA, however its integration with private manufacturers can also cause same side effects of MIA. While we are most of the time taking private industrial help from other countries. Except their names are Smith/Winchesters/etc almost God like pure angelic.
Just because there are L&T, Ambani, Kirloskars we see corruption? and MIC & now wars will start because Ambani needs money ?
Ambani is manufacturer , when they created first Petro Chemical plants didn’t we see that a Sari seller became manufacturer of textiles and polyster ?
Isn’t JIO giving you great service and fastest internet? Did you ask Mukesh how come you are buying AirWaves and becoming best Telecom provider without first being atleast somebody in Telecom?
Why it has to be different for Ambani to manufacture a fighter plane component? with license from some western company ? When you were fine those components being manufactured by 100s of private companies in France and Europe? Creating hi-tech jobs there in lands of Smith/Finnemecia/Macron etc.
Don’t hate Indians, why do you see corruption only in dark skin and professionalism/Greateness in white skin? Don’t hate your brothers/sisters so much because they being from Maharashtra/Gujrath/TamilNadu/Punjab or from different religion. Why hate indian gujju and love a firang ?
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Anil Ambani,s co. Cannot manufacture off_set or any Rafale related accessories unless it is approved by Dessault for comformance to its vendor approval system. This Dessault is a avliding. Therefore any product related deficiency , Dassault will not take respo sibility. As i am coming to know Dessault is not a very credit worthy company, therefore they are allowing the deal. If there was any other company, they would not have accepted Ambani. Now what is to be done? People of this country must must pressurise the Govt.to produce the Lost Rafale Documents. For that the court should be pressurised. Regarding price every discussion is futile without the Original Rafale Documents.
Who is this idiot masquerading as a journalist?
Arnab Goswami? Sudheer Chaudhary? Navika? Sardana?
p.s. Can you post your actual point, IF you have any, instead of personal attacks please?
So, this is 2020 & what happen to all these article on Rafale deal as a scam?
Supreme Court verdict kicked them on there butt..
We stand by all our articles. Please check the one explaining the CAG report, will help you understand what went on. Thanks.
The scam is resurfacing again in 2021, kudos to the editor who has done excellent journalism.
https://www.businesstoday.in/current/corporate/french-major-dassault-paid-1-million-to-indian-middleman-after-rafale-deal-report/story/435769.html
This seems to be a tip of the iceberg and many skeletons are going to come out of the closet if neutral and fair investigation is done. PMO and the govt is directly involved in this deal.